Professional Documents
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Criminal Action
No. 13-10200-GAO
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APPEARANCES:
OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
By: William D. Weinreb, Aloke Chakravarty and
Nadine Pellegrini, Assistant U.S. Attorneys
John Joseph Moakley Federal Courthouse
Suite 9200
Boston, Massachusetts 02210
- and UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
By: Steven D. Mellin, Assistant U.S. Attorney
Capital Case Section
1331 F Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20530
On Behalf of the Government
FEDERAL PUBLIC DEFENDER OFFICE
By: Miriam Conrad, William W. Fick and Timothy G.
Watkins, Federal Public Defenders
51 Sleeper Street
Fifth Floor
Boston, Massachusetts 02210
- and CLARKE & RICE, APC
By: Judy Clarke, Esq.
1010 Second Avenue
Suite 1800
San Diego, California 92101
- and LAW OFFICE OF DAVID I. BRUCK
By: David I. Bruck, Esq.
220 Sydney Lewis Hall
Lexington, Virginia 24450
On Behalf of the Defendant
56-3
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I N D E X
ELMIRZA KHOZHUGOV
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By Ms. Clarke
By Mr. Chakravarty
By Ms. Clarke
By Ms. Pellegrini
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JENNIFER CARR-CALLISON
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SONYA PETRI
By Mr. Bruck
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Cross
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Direct
By Ms. Conrad
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ERIC TRAUB
By Ms. Clarke
By Mr. Mellin
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127
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MARK BEZY
By Mr. Bruck
By Mr. Mellin
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E X H I B I T S
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Redirect
Recross
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DEFENDANT'S
EXHIBIT
DESCRIPTION
FOR ID
RECEIVED
3434
63
3434A
Embedded slide
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3509B
MGH records
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3509C
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3509D
MGH records
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3509J
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3523
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3507-068 Photograph
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3246
Photograph
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3247-3
Letter of recommendation
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3253
Photograph
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56-5
P R O C E E D I N G S
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THE COURT:
brought the jury out.
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
All right.
MS. CLARKE:
witness.
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00:01
Yes.
00:00
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manipulative.
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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00:12
MR. WEINREB:
brother-in-law.
THE COURT:
MS. CLARKE:
MR. WEINREB:
He
He's Ruslan's
Tsarnaev.
and there's a -- and Ruslan and that side of the family blamed
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huge rift between Anzor and his relatives on the one hand and
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She
Ruslan --
And it created a
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feel so passionately.
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00:12
MS. CLARKE:
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family.
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MR. WEINREB:
a witch.
It's
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family is all Zubeidat's fault going back to the day she met
Anzor.
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MS. CLARKE:
00:12
MR. WEINREB:
because of Elmirza.
THE COURT:
His brother-in-law.
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MS. CLARKE:
MR. WEINREB:
MS. CLARKE:
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MR. WEINREB:
I think we did.
MS. CLARKE:
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MR. WEINREB:
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Zubeidat.
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not brother --
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But if it can
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00:12
This is
Elmirza.
Zubeidat.
MS. CLARKE:
observations.
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MS. CLARKE:
MR. WEINREB:
THE COURT:
00:12
00:12
MR. WEINREB:
MS. CLARKE:
All right.
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kidnapping.
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THE COURT:
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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kidnapped --
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THE COURT:
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
One, he blames
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Zubeidat for keeping as essentially ransom his son from him for
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Tsarnaev family.
son --
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THE COURT:
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
Correct.
the family.
family.
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MR. WEINREB:
THE COURT:
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MR. WEINREB:
THE COURT:
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MR. WEINREB:
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being deprived.
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sees her as having kept his child from him and evidence --
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THE COURT:
No.
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00:12
00:12
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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back to Kazakhstan.
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child.
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THE COURT:
It
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THE COURT:
THE COURT:
Ailina.
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00:12
MR. WEINREB:
00:12
MS. CLARKE:
Kidnapping is not a
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THE COURT:
Well --
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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between Ailina --
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THE COURT:
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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Kazakhstan.
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MS. CLARKE:
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MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
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I don't
He went
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00:12
back.
hear a rumor about all the things that he and his family were
would say it was -- and then threatened him and his family to
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on the internet.
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scenario.
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THE COURT:
We
case here.
MR. WEINREB:
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THE COURT:
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00:12
He was on an F1 visa.
overdo it.
MS. CLARKE:
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raise these issues that I'm not raising so that they can shoot
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them down.
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MR. WEINREB:
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father-in-law.
He
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THE COURT:
MR. WEINREB:
poorly on --
THE COURT:
.
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It's
Okay.
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00:13
00:12
Is he going to be testifying --
THE COURT:
that.
MR. WEINREB:
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last thing, which is, the Court has said that there would be an
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which this --
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THE COURT:
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MR. WEINREB:
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THE COURT:
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MR. WEINREB:
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MS. CLARKE:
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to come in by video.
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MR. WEINREB:
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THE COURT:
But specifically?
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00:14
Court was going to instruct the jury that he's not under the
THE COURT:
MR. WEINREB:
MS. CLARKE:
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MR. WEINREB:
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MS. CLARKE:
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There's
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00:15
MR. WEINREB:
Very well.
Your Honor, would the Court give us an
All right.
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remote connection.
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connection.
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We
If an
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00:17
and when that happens, you won't see the witness for the time
being.
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
exhibit; and if you wanted to look and see the witness when
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00:18
We can't do both.
THE CLERK:
I think
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hand.
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testimony that you're about to give the Court and jury in this
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issue now on trial shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
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THE WITNESS:
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THE CLERK:
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Yes.
Court?
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THE WITNESS:
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THE CLERK:
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THE WITNESS:
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THE CLERK:
Yes.
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THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
00:20
Yes, please.
to give the Court and the jury in this issue now on trial shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
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00:19
I swear.
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THE WITNESS:
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E-l-m-i-r-z-a.
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Q.
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A.
Hello.
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Q.
Good evening.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
It's
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00:21
00:21
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
father.
Q.
A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
Thank you.
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States.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
Yes.
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A.
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Q.
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education?
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A.
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Q.
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A.
How is that?
How
And then did you return to the United States for more
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00:22
00:23
Q.
Thank you.
A.
Q.
A.
for Jahar.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
If you know, when did your sister marry Ruslan, Ruslan who
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is Jahar's uncle?
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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met on the wedding; and the rest of the family, I met about six
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Q.
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A.
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his last name, basically take out the two last letters of his
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00:25
Russian.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
In your --
A.
That's right.
Q.
In your younger years, you said you first met the rest of
the Tsarnaev family after Ruslan and your sister got married.
Did you know one member of the Tsarnaev family better than the
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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both of us.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
Yes.
And I
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00:27
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
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with Ruslan Tsarni in Almaty, and they lived to the U.S. a year
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Q.
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A.
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good friend.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
Yes.
When you came to the U.S., where did you live and who did
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00:28
00:28
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
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Q.
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that first year, did you see the Tsarnaev family, any members
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A.
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the family did visit me and, actually, not just the elder
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an aunt to Jahar.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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stack 3507-60.
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I'm sorry.
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THE COURT:
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00:30
00:30
these photographs?
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
Q.
It's with you sitting on a couch with -- have you got it?
A.
MS. CLARKE:
Q.
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A.
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Ruslan.
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Q.
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A.
Yeah.
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Q.
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A.
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of my school.
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Q.
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A.
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Yes.
This isn't the first time I met her, but it's the first
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Q.
A.
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
MS. CLARKE:
think it's pretty clear we've got a child and two adults in the
picture, and one is Zubeidat and one is Elmirza and one is the
child.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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frame, 3494.
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00:32
anymore.
00:31
MS. CLARKE:
And
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A.
3494.
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Q.
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A.
Uh-huh.
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Q.
Can you tell the jury who is in that picture from left to
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right?
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A.
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00:33
00:34
Q.
I see there's --
A.
Jahar.
cousin of Jahar.
himself.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
Thank you.
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MS. CLARKE:
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Q.
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A.
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Yes.
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00:35
00:36
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
that visit?
A.
time together.
lived.
Oh, yes.
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family.
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Q.
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A.
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and he did say that he would discuss it with his parents when
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he goes back.
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Q.
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you?
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A.
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Q.
Did you -- when Tamerlan was out there visiting with you,
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did you talk to him about anything else that was important to
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you?
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A.
Yes.
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00:37
00:37
Q.
sister?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
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Q.
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A.
Excuse me?
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Q.
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A.
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relationship.
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Q.
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and Ailina?
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A.
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Q.
So you were 19; she would have been 15, almost 16?
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A.
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Q.
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State?
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A.
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Q.
It was -- in
Can you tell us what the age difference was between you
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A.
00:38
00:39
MS. CLARKE:
So
Q.
A.
Yes.
the right.
Q.
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A.
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Q.
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picture?
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A.
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Q.
How did --
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A.
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Q.
I'm sorry.
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A.
25
And one
Can you tell the jury what is written at the top of the
Go ahead.
56-27
professor because that would make him sound smarter and wiser
I chose that because I felt like our ethnicity, the name of our
Q.
MS. CLARKE:
So the right
Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
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3507-059.
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A.
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00:41
00:40
Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE:
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Q.
Can you tell the jury who is in that photo even though
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A.
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Q.
25
How did you -- how do you remember that you were already
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00:42
A.
Q.
And you would not have been hugging her before that time?
A.
exactly.
Q.
A.
marriage.
Q.
A.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
Can you tell the jury a little bit about what happened?
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THE COURT:
want the witness?
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00:42
MS. CLARKE:
Yes.
The witness.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
22
Q.
Who --
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A.
24
Q.
Separated.
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A.
We got separated.
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00:44
00:44
and flew in, and he stayed with us for about ten days, maybe
two weeks.
Q.
in your marriage?
A.
Q.
So he
Can you tell the jury why you think you had problems in
10
your marriage?
11
marriage?
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A.
13
14
Q.
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A.
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Q.
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A.
18
Q.
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A.
Z-i-y-a-u-d-i.
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Q.
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A.
Ziyaudi.
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Q.
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A.
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Q.
25
which I'm taking as 2006 to 2008, did you have -- you were in
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00:45
00:46
Washington State?
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
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11
Cambridge?
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A.
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times.
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Q.
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A.
16
Q.
Can you describe the Tsarnaev home for the jury, the home
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A.
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22
Q.
How --
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A.
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crowded.
25
Q.
During these two years, I visit them for about four to six
It was always
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00:47
A.
the most part, I would say that the mother, Zubeidat, had more
Q.
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11
A.
12
13
to do actually.
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much.
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00:48
Zubeidat loved her son and she showed it, and she would
MS. CLARKE:
17
Q.
Can you
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19
A.
20
Q.
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A.
22
Q.
Is that photograph --
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A.
I'm not --
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Q.
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A.
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00:50
00:50
Q.
A.
would just come up and hug his mother and tell her that he
Q.
Now, when you were in the home, did you also see Jahar?
A.
Q.
Yes, it is reflective.
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12
A.
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writing.
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18
put up his good grades, and she would put it on a magnet on the
19
fridge so the whole fridge was his successful grades and all
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that stuff.
21
Q.
22
attention or --
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A.
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25
well.
He would be reading or
He
56-33
00:52
00:53
Q.
period, did you meet somebody there who was speaking to the
A.
Misha.
When you were visiting the Tsarnaev home during this time
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Q.
11
spell that.
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A.
13
Q.
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Tamerlan about?
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A.
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possible.
21
Q.
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A.
23
24
25
Q.
56-34
A.
I didn't spend much time with them because I didn't like these
conversations.
was even one situation when it was late night, and Misha and
9
00:54
00:55
They
And at that late time, Anzor came home from work, and he
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at night?
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at night in my house?
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talking?
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18
19
Q.
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conversations?
22
A.
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25
Why is he so late
So I just
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00:56
00:57
religion.
Q.
So --
A.
off.
Q.
A.
Yes.
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12
your boxing?
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professional boxer.
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didn't listen.
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college, I believe.
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friends.
25
is your music?
How
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00:58
00:58
kid.
Islam.
Q.
10
expressed to you?
11
A.
12
question.
13
Q.
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15
you?
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A.
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Q.
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developed?
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A.
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21
22
23
24
25
He
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01:00
01:01
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
adored him.
He was
During that time that you were visiting the family home,
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11
defender of Jahar.
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13
within himself.
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doing.
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19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I'm sorry.
Did
56-38
01:02
01:02
Q.
A.
Q.
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11
12
jury?
13
A.
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15
than the youngest son, meaning that the youngest of the boys is
16
17
had to obey every order that the elder brother say, any of
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19
20
21
Q.
22
you maintain contact with them about your grandson after you
23
24
A.
Did I what?
25
Q.
So he
Did
56-39
01:03
01:04
grandson.
A.
separated.
Is that --
Q.
Yes.
A.
actually.
Q.
I mean their
I'm sorry.
10
11
A.
Uh-huh, yes.
12
Q.
13
with you?
14
A.
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
So maybe --
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
2007?
56-40
01:05
01:06
-- 2010 probably.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
these clothes isn't going to change her, the way that she is
15
actually.
16
17
Q.
18
Tamerlan?
19
2010?
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
56-41
01:07
mother, and the sister Bella, and then eventually I got through
don't know where they are, and I can't get in touch with them
10
So I started trying
either.
11
01:08
Would
12
you mind driving down to the South Station and talk to me about
13
things?
14
now.
15
16
mosque.
17
18
Q.
19
Tamerlan?
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
I have to
56-42
01:09
01:10
Q.
Kazakhstan?
A.
In fall of 2012.
Q.
A.
mother and told her that, if we wanted to, we could take Zia
10
told them that he's going to stop by in D.C. and take my son,
11
12
eventually Jahar was the one who brought Zia to D.C. and gave
13
14
to Almaty, Kazakhstan.
15
Q.
16
well, right?
17
A.
18
19
20
school.
21
22
Q.
23
have it there?
24
A.
25
Q.
And
Oh, yes.
And they
Do you
56-43
01:11
A.
On this picture, you can see my son on the left, Zia, and
Q.
relationship?
A.
was starting up the computer to let Zia talk either with one of
Q.
Yes.
So probably Jahar
10
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
A.
Yeah.
15
01:12
MS. CLARKE:
Thank you.
16
Elmirza.
17
Q.
18
with you in the fall of 2012 and the plan was for a few months,
19
right?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
with Ailina.
56-44
after that, I decided that it's not a good idea to send my son
MS. CLARKE:
01:14
Thank you.
So a few days
And
you.
9
01:14
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
10
11
Q.
12
you.
13
A.
Good evening.
14
Q.
Mr. Khozhugov, you just told us that your son Ziyaudi was
15
16
A.
17
Q.
2007.
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
15th?
24
MS. CLARKE:
25
THE COURT:
56-45
01:15
01:16
Q.
A.
Q.
United States?
A.
Uh-huh, yes.
Q.
I see.
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
Ethnicity?
16
Q.
Yes.
17
A.
Yes, I am Chechen.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
That is correct.
23
Q.
24
culture, right?
25
A.
I do consider myself.
56-46
01:16
01:17
Q.
culture?
A.
Q.
A.
Excuse me?
Q.
bombing?
A.
Q.
And do you remember telling the FBI that you do not speak
10
11
traditions?
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
18
examination that the Tsarnaev family came and lived with him in
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
too.
24
Q.
25
56-47
01:18
01:19
A.
for sure because at that age I was not aware of all of what was
Q.
uncle?
A.
Yes.
Q.
I cannot say
10
is that fair?
11
A.
12
Q.
Sure.
13
family, correct?
14
A.
In what respect?
15
Q.
Well --
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
A.
20
Q.
And, in fact --
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
daughters of Anzor.
25
Q.
Thank you.
There were times when Tamerlan would come and stay with
56-48
01:19
01:20
A.
Yes.
Q.
to Kazakhstan as well?
A.
Q.
Kazakhstan as well?
A.
10
Q.
11
correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
21
22
23
want to go there?
24
Q.
25
Washington?
Okay.
Excuse me.
Do you
56-49
A.
Yes.
Q.
right?
A.
Q.
01:21
01:21
MS. CLARKE:
A.
Q.
10
THE COURT:
11
MS. CLARKE:
12
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
Go ahead.
It won't be much longer.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
A.
56-50
01:22
Q.
A.
And
But in respect
10
11
12
13
who is now living in his house and goes to college over there.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
01:23
18
19
20
that right?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes, he is.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
earlier?
56-51
01:24
01:24
A.
Hussein as well.
Q.
Kazakhstan, correct?
A.
Uh-huh, yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And when he came to the United States, you also spent some
10
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
would meet with some of his friends, including one I think you
15
mentioned was Abu Bakr, and they would sit around and drink
16
beers?
17
A.
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
time with Tamerlan and some of his friends here in the Boston
23
area?
24
25
A.
56-52
01:26
01:26
Q.
A.
very friendly.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
anymore?
15
A.
16
17
stopped.
18
Q.
And then --
19
A.
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
A.
He started what?
25
Q.
Boxing again.
Do you remember also telling the FBI that you said he then
56-53
01:27
01:28
A.
boxing.
you know the time patterns when you ask these questions
actually.
10
Q.
11
right?
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
one's ex-wife?
24
A.
25
Q.
56-54
01:29
01:30
A.
Q.
hoping to spend some time with him, you shouldn't have been
correct?
A.
No.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
reason why, because when I met him in 2010 and we were already
13
14
did talk.
15
son to take him with me, instead this time I was staying in
16
17
get from him is, Hey, I'm busy with doing mosque things so, no,
18
19
Q.
20
21
custody of Ziyaudi?
22
A.
Yes, it is correct.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I did not have -- I was not supposed -- and I did not have
I was picking up my
56-55
01:31
01:32
we contacted a lot.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
So from 2010, 2011, 2012, and into 2013, you did not have
10
household, correct?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
uncle.
17
18
19
Q.
20
and Anzor had also soured, and they were not talking to each
21
other?
22
23
A.
But in any
That is correct.
THE COURT:
Q.
MS. CLARKE:
24
25
Go ahead.
56-56
01:32
01:33
A.
that Ruslan and Anzor didn't have the best relationship at this
true.
Q.
That's
10
11
A.
12
hear.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
A.
18
19
Jahar, of course.
That is correct.
20
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
21
THE WITNESS:
Welcome.
22
MS. CLARKE:
Thank you.
23
24
THE WITNESS:
25
THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you.
56-57
2
3
02:04
THE CLERK:
The
THE CLERK:
THE CLERK:
10
11
Be seated.
MS. CLARKE:
12
13
THE CLERK:
14
State your name, spell your first and last name for
Have a seat.
15
the record, keep your voice up and speak into the mic so
16
17
18
THE WITNESS:
G-I-E-D-D.
19
02:05
DIRECT EXAMINATION
20
BY MS. CLARKE:
21
Q.
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
56-58
02:06
02:07
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Since 1991?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Up until?
A.
Q.
And why did you move to San Diego, other than for the
10
weather?
11
A.
12
13
centers for people who study brain development; the people, the
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
Correct.
19
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
school there.
24
25
physics.
56-59
02:08
02:08
Q.
A.
Yeah.
geriatric and child, but they have more in common than people
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
of their brain.
21
22
And so they're
23
24
through the second decade of life, and that became key because
25
56-60
02:09
02:10
bipolar disorder.
Q.
A.
Q.
And when you said you were boarded in both geriatrics and
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
brain development?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
A lot?
20
A.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
So
56-61
02:11
A.
is healthy children and youth, and the other half was for
groups.
Q.
A.
About half
All right.
Yeah.
10
11
12
13
14
families.
15
02:12
16
17
18
military service.
19
20
21
lives.
22
Q.
23
24
development.
25
A.
Okay.
Yes.
Is that correct?
56-62
02:12
02:13
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
"adolescence" mean?
A.
define precisely.
both the start and the end are imprecise because puberty can be
What does
10
11
target.
12
13
14
15
functioning adult.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
56-63
over the place in terms of the consensus of, you know, when is
02:14
02:15
It's all
Q.
10
process.
11
slides.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
MS. PELLEGRINI:
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. PELLEGRINI:
17
THE COURT:
18
MS. CLARKE:
To any of them?
No.
Okay.
I think the number is 3434, your Honor,
19
20
would be 3434A.
21
22
evidence.)
23
BY MS. CLARKE:
24
Q.
25
Can you tell us, this first slide, Brain Maturation, can
56-64
specialization?
A.
medals in the Olympics; that they're quite smart and mature and
skilled.
whole adolescence.
9
02:15
10
11
dynamic changes.
12
screen.
13
14
15
16
17
02:16
18
19
20
21
game.
22
23
time.
24
25
to decision-making.
56-65
02:17
events.
Q.
A.
In the teen
10
11
as we got smarter.
12
13
14
15
02:18
16
17
after that.
18
19
smaller.
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
so this part of the brain does X, and this part of the brain is
24
for memory, and this part of the brain is for looking to the
25
future.
So now we see
56-66
alphabet.
letters in place.
02:18
02:19
through life, those letters get formed into words, the words
Q.
So that's how
10
11
A.
12
13
wire.
14
information go faster.
15
decade for women and the fourth for men, we get more and more
16
of this insulation, which makes our brain move 100 times faster
17
18
times faster.
19
Yes.
20
21
22
faster, and the connections that we don't use, they're not just
23
24
the brain.
25
56-67
02:20
02:21
like a checkerboard.
become more used, they become paved between the major grain
centers.
you can zoom down those lanes, but you can't turn off every
Q.
Sure.
Yeah.
So now
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
19
different times.
20
like heart rate, breathing, that has to happen very early, even
21
in the womb.
22
23
formed.
24
during the teen years when we have the parts of our brain
25
56-68
02:22
Q.
understand that?
A.
go through the teen years, then our brains can become adapted
10
11
12
13
changeable way longer than any other species, and that's what
14
allowed us to survive.
15
16
17
18
children in caves.
19
02:22
20
21
And what predicts the big change in the brain wasn't how harsh
22
23
24
Q.
25
specializing?
And this
56-69
02:23
02:24
A.
Q.
A.
It
10
11
Q.
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
56-70
02:25
02:26
A.
Q.
You can touch the screen, Dr. Giedd, and circle -- you can
10
A.
(Witness complies.)
11
Q.
12
A.
Okay.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
smaller.
20
time travel.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
25
that we've had in our life, all of the input coming in through
56-71
02:26
our eyes and our skin and our nose and our mouth but also our
hopes and dreams for the future and to tie it all together.
the paragraphs are formed, and it's the part of the brain that
is latest to mature.
Q.
understand consequences?
A.
Yes, and to get along with each other socially and to run
10
11
12
13
way.
14
02:27
So not --
15
bad thing.
16
different areas.
17
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
21
22
23
24
25
56-72
that's changing.
02:28
02:29
The whole
thinking was that the limbic system was sort of primitive and
motivations.
Now it's
It tells us our
10
goals.
11
12
13
14
consequences.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
important.
18
are the big ones, but also involved in even sleep, hunger, all
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
56-73
just to sort of focus on, again, this is that same area that I
02:30
02:30
blue, that's when it's reaching the adult levels, when it's
maturing.
Q.
10
watch for?
11
A.
12
it's sort of like the blue will sort of circle the wagons.
13
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
other --
19
A.
Okay.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
24
process.
25
Q.
It
It's not
Okay.
So this is an
So for a
56-74
02:31
collectively would --
A.
have 14-year-old girls who are very future thinking and are not
Q.
10
11
And so --
A.
12
02:32
Yeah.
(Laughter.)
13
A.
14
15
individual scan.
16
17
18
Q.
19
itself, I think.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
(Indicating.)
23
There's many
And so, again, it's not that before this age that it's
24
25
56-75
02:33
02:33
construction.
for learning.
Q.
A.
It worked, yeah.
10
11
12
double-edged sword.
13
Q.
14
place.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
early.
21
It allows
So I don't
It's a
And it's a
Yes.
22
23
24
25
individuality.
56-76
Q.
02:35
MS. CLARKE:
Q.
A.
frontal lobe, whether -- it's more your age, whether you're pre
So the
10
11
part as much.
12
02:35
13
14
our passions, again, for both -- you know, for good and ill;
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
21
death.
22
23
24
25
56-77
02:36
Q.
A.
10
have greater reward seeking -- and this isn't even just humans.
11
12
13
parents to peers.
14
15
away.
16
17
02:37
They're
18
19
things we didn't have when our brains were evolving, but now
20
21
temptations.
22
23
you know, in terms of for where the teens are at that moment in
24
their life.
25
Q.
56-78
02:38
02:38
25.
A.
to draw the line and we have to realize that for a given person
10
11
and things like that, where there is a right answer, it's not
12
even 25.
13
14
Q.
15
16
and 20?
17
A.
18
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
affect development.
24
A.
25
Well, on average, puberty 12, and then the end point 25,
Yeah.
Yes, on average.
The first,
56-79
02:40
was striking was how big the impact of the environment is.
And what
10
11
influences.
12
And
And one way to think about it is that the genes are like
13
14
billion lights.
15
16
17
18
19
02:40
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
56-80
02:41
brain?
A.
strongest, or fastest.
10
But
And the way that the brain does that is through modeling,
11
you know, not modeling kind of stuff but learning, and learning
12
by example.
13
14
15
16
17
02:42
Through
And
18
19
based on the brain science, and it's hard because it's not a
20
long list.
21
22
about time management, about goals and values, not when we're
23
24
25
It's
56-81
02:43
individuals.
Q.
able to do that?
10
A.
11
around and around and talk about when you become independent
12
adults.
13
the second decade, you know, ten to 20, but more so because
14
15
02:43
16
and Japan.
17
years later.
18
19
20
21
years.
22
We're
23
back to for what -- you know, it depends, and for what reason
24
25
56-82
02:45
02:45
Q.
A.
10
11
five or six, these things -- you know, give me a top age five,
12
13
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
progress?
19
A.
20
defective brain.
Yes.
21
MS. CLARKE:
22
23
MS. PELLEGRINI:
24
25
I may.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. PELLEGRINI:
56-83
Q.
A.
Good morning.
Q.
02:46
02:47
position was and what your job experience was to Ms. Clarke,
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
behavior."
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
All right.
13
14
as well?
15
A.
16
Q.
17
brain from the person than you can separate a brain imaging
18
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
All right.
21
22
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Yes.
56-84
02:48
decades or so.
A.
Q.
And it's changed a lot; but what you have also seen, have
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
popular media -- you know, for example, awhile back there was a
12
whole trend toward, you know, playing Mozart to the baby while
13
14
15
16
A.
Correct.
17
Q.
Right.
18
02:48
Which turned out not to hold up, but -So all those Mozart playing was for naught.
But, also, would you also agree with me that with respect
19
20
21
22
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
25
you know, she was born an old soul," or, "There's an old head
56-85
decision-making?
4
5
02:49
02:50
MS. CLARKE:
doctor knows.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
BY MS. PELLEGRINI:
Q.
10
11
imaging won't tell you the whole story, people who are not in
12
your field can also look at others' behaviors, and they can
13
14
15
immature?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And that, again, will be based upon the behavior that they
18
19
A.
Correct.
20
Q.
All right.
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
All right.
23
24
25
56-86
02:50
02:51
young person jumping into a car and driving off with it.
A.
Yes.
Q.
All right.
A.
Exactly.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do
Yes.
And your view was it's looking backwards?
Yeah.
That's impulsive
10
behavior."
11
A.
12
13
to prove it?"
14
15
The brain scan would, you know, not be any more certain than
16
that.
17
probably.
18
19
itself is --
20
Q.
Is key?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI:
Your feed?
56-87
02:52
MR. BRUEMMER:
BY MS. PELLEGRINI:
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
persuasive?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
18
02:52
19
A.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
22
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
56-88
02:53
02:54
you said several times was an average when you're doing your
studies, it's fair to say that within this range and spectrum
of, say, four to 22, you really don't know where any particular
A.
Correct.
Q.
All right.
but also, I believe this is something else that you might have
10
11
12
A.
Ah, yes.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
15
16
17
18
19
characterization"?
20
A.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
23
A.
24
level is one of the big -- the big goals, but I think we're
25
Yes.
Yes.
All right.
So one of the
56-89
02:54
brain-imaging differences.
around the room and say -- if we went into a high school and
10
looking at it.
11
imaging.
12
02:55
Why?
13
14
15
16
17
through life.
18
19
20
level.
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
56-90
02:56
02:57
A.
Yes.
individual variation.
Q.
that it's not necessarily that things are broken or absent when
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Correct.
10
11
12
13
most people, you know, will move in that direction unless they
14
15
Illnesses --
16
Q.
17
off.
18
A.
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
saying that the age of a person and the brain maturation does
I'm sorry.
But am I right in
56-91
02:58
02:58
within this larger group -- can plan, can premeditate, and can
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
10
11
consequences.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And there was a time that you were asked -- and I think it
17
might have been the same conference, if you would just give me
18
a minute -- about the fact that within the time period from,
19
20
21
22
23
A.
24
amount of time spent with violent video games from 2002 to that
25
And one of the other things that you talked about with
Yeah, the context for that was the Internet, and that the
56-92
02:59
03:00
content, it's almost impossible not to, just in the ads and
such.
But all of
Real world,
10
Q.
11
might have been -- this would have been -- again, this was a
12
13
14
A.
Uh-huh.
15
Q.
All right.
16
point.
17
18
19
for example, that reading may not have as great an effect, and
20
21
regard.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
data for the last 47 years, since they've been keeping score,
I remember.
And I believe you were a guest speaker at that
Is that correct?
56-93
low.
03:01
03:01
And the
A.
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
getting an image like it's on our screen right now, that within
15
16
17
18
Development:
19
A.
Durston or --
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
All right?
23
24
25
56-94
03:02
03:03
strikingly high variability even within the group that you are
A.
Q.
Correct?
10
11
12
13
neuroimaging.
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
behaviors.
23
So that, as you
24
25
56-95
03:04
brain stays that way, you know, longer than any of us, I think,
Q.
A.
their story.
I listen to them.
11
Q.
Literally.
12
A.
Yeah.
14
MS. PELLEGRINI:
I have no
further questions.
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. CLARKE:
17
THE COURT:
18
10
13
03:04
No.
Ms. Clarke?
Thank you, Dr. Giedd.
All right.
You my
step down.
19
20
MR. BRUCK:
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. BRUCK:
Yes.
23
24
25
jury:)
THE COURT:
56-96
list, but I think I've been advised that one of the issues
MR. BRUCK:
Exactly.
THE COURT:
they're cumulative.
03:05
MR. WEINREB:
10
11
03:06
I think
THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you.
me.
12
13
MR. BRUCK:
Sonya Petri.
14
THE COURT:
Good afternoon.
15
(Pause.)
16
17
DIRECT EXAMINATION
18
BY MR. BRUCK:
19
Q.
20
A.
Good afternoon.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
25
56-97
1
2
03:08
Correct.
MR. BRUCK:
3509B, which are Mass. General records; 3509C, which are from
10
11
12
13
THE COURT:
All right.
14
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
15
THE COURT:
16
17
18
03:08
A.
No objection.
All right.
19
20
21
22
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
23
changed since when I saw it, I think, a couple of days ago, but
24
25
THE COURT:
Okay.
56-98
03:09
it's just a --
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
THE COURT:
MR. BRUCK:
BY MR. BRUCK:
Q.
screen?
Okay.
Thank you.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
I'm sorry.
15
16
17
18
19
03:10
Correct.
20
3522.
THE COURT:
MR. BRUCK:
Dr. Niss.
My
apologies.
MS. CLARKE:
evidence yesterday.
21
MR. CHAKRAVARTY:
22
MR. BRUCK:
23
24
25
we wanted.
23.
My apology.
THE COURT:
56-99
1
2
Yes, please.
MR. BRUCK:
THE COURT:
Okay.
MR. BRUCK:
Thank you.
03:11
evidence.
Yes.
03:11
MR. BRUCK:
23.
10
BY MR. BRUCK:
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Tsarnaev.
14
Q.
15
A.
I did.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
It is.
19
Q.
20
entire document.
21
call up a few items and ask you to read them for us, please,
22
23
24
25
56-100
03:12
03:13
prescribed?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
A.
Yes, it is.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
unstable mood.
15
day.
16
17
with agoraphobia.
18
and Trazodone.
19
Q.
20
Go ahead.
Symptoms
Thank you.
All right.
21
A.
22
Notes:
23
24
wants to cry.
25
flashbacks.
Patient
56-101
03:14
03:15
distress.
and Ambien.
Q.
Thank you.
A.
10
Inpatient admission
11
12
13
14
Q.
Thank you.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The
Next page?
On
And the
56-102
03:16
and pneumocephalus.
Q.
Next page?
A.
Q.
Thank you.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
faces).
15
03:17
Further on down?
Next page?
"I am scared."
16
17
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
22
times.
23
24
25
Medications:
The
56-103
03:19
03:20
Q.
Thank you.
Next page?
A.
week).
10
11
fainting spells.
12
13
hyperlipidemia.
14
15
Q.
16
A.
17
notes:
18
19
20
21
22
inpatient stay.
23
24
25
Q.
No sciatica.
No
56-104
03:21
A.
notes:
cooperative.
fluctuating.
injury.
Q.
A.
10
11
concern.
12
able to work.
13
03:22
It says:
Not
Dr. Smurawska
14
notes:
15
16
17
18
19
Psychotic.
20
MR. BRUCK:
21
22
THE COURT:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
25
MS. CONRAD:
Will
And
Medications
That's all?
Thank you.
Thank you.
56-105
THE CLERK:
first and last name for the record, keep your voice up and
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
03:24
03:23
Have a seat.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONRAD:
Q.
10
A.
Good afternoon.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
system?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
And how long have you been with the Winchester school
56-106
03:24
03:25
school yourself?
A.
I am.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
And before you went into the field of education, what kind
10
11
California.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
I was.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
in June of 2014.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
of work?
25
A.
56-107
03:25
03:26
school.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
It was Garcia.
Q.
year.
10
A.
11
12
13
help them plan for the transition from adult -- from high
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
court reporter.
21
A.
Sorry.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Buddies.
I worked with
Can I ask you just to slow down just a little bit for the
Of course.
56-108
03:26
03:27
Q.
A.
school level, which was a chapter of Best Buddies that ran for
disabilities.
Q.
The program
10
11
assistance?
12
A.
13
14
15
Q.
16
A.
17
into adult life to kind of help gain social skills, they would
18
19
20
that club.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
25
Then off
We went to
56-109
03:27
03:28
We had
Q.
A.
I do.
Q.
A.
Q.
In what year?
10
A.
2010 to 2011.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
We did.
18
Q.
19
A.
It would not.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
25
What types of
56-110
A.
Q.
objection -- as 3507-068.
9
03:29
03:29
10
MS. PELLEGRINI:
please?
11
12
MS. CONRAD:
13
THE COURT:
14
MS. CONRAD:
15
16
BY MS. CONRAD:
17
Q.
18
A.
I do.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
A.
I do.
25
Q.
And you just -- you can just touch the screen and draw a
56-111
03:30
03:30
A.
(Witness complies.)
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
No.
10
Q.
Can you tell us what some of the other events were that he
11
attended?
12
A.
13
14
15
attend.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
20
21
and sit together and have lunch, and that was typically on
22
Wednesdays.
23
Q.
24
prom?
25
A.
It was
56-112
03:31
03:31
fee we could buy tickets and take students to the Best Buddies
prom.
Q.
A.
and queen group of different peer buddies and buddies who were
For a
They
10
together.
11
12
Q.
13
A.
Wonderful.
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
and eat the free pizza and hang out with their friends and
22
leave?
23
A.
24
25
56-113
03:32
03:32
and be respectful.
Q.
Jahar?
A.
I do.
Q.
A.
He was
10
respectful.
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
He did not.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
students to attend?
21
A.
22
tickets.
23
the events, and the school funded the bus that took us to the
24
25
Q.
56-114
A.
Yes.
Q.
And was the Jahar -- was that consistent with the Jahar
MS. PELLEGRINI:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
9
03:33
03:33
Objection.
Overruled.
You may answer.
10
speaking on today.
11
BY MS. CONRAD:
12
Q.
13
MS. PELLEGRINI:
14
THE COURT:
15
Objection.
No, go ahead.
16
BY MS. CONRAD:
17
Q.
18
19
A.
No.
20
MS. CONRAD:
21
MS. PELLEGRINI:
22
(Pause.)
23
MS. PELLEGRINI:
24
THE COURT:
25
The
Thank you.
You
56-115
MS. CLARKE:
03:35
THE COURT:
03:34
jury:)
THE COURT:
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
General -A test?
No, just general orientation.
10
MS. CLARKE:
Yes.
11
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. BRUCK:
But
14
15
16
to ESPN.
17
THE COURT:
Okay.
18
MR. BRUCK:
19
MR. WEINREB:
20
21
22
important that the record reflect that the argument that if the
23
24
25
I think it's
56-116
THE COURT:
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
MR. WEINREB:
THE COURT:
11
THE COURT:
12
MS. CLARKE:
13
MR. BRUCK:
15
MS. CLARKE:
16
THE COURT:
17
MS. CLARKE:
18
THE COURT:
20
Yes.
And then?
MS. CLARKE:
19
So
10
14
03:36
9
03:35
I don't want to --
break.
4
5
All right.
preview.
These four.
I see.
Okay.
All right.
Thanks.
And then for tomorrow?
Just to get a
Is there a tomorrow?
MS. CLARKE:
21
22
23
24
25
MR. WEINREB:
56-117
Prejean.
2
3
THE COURT:
MS. CLARKE:
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
Thank you.
All right.
The
12
THE CLERK:
13
14
THE CLERK:
15
MS. CLARKE:
16
Be seated.
Your Honor, the defense would call Eric
Traub.
17
18
05:13
We can
10
11
So -- fine.
at this point.
8
9
All right.
03:37
Okay.
THE CLERK:
19
20
21
THE WITNESS:
22
23
BY MS. CLARKE:
24
Q.
25
A.
56-118
05:14
05:14
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
I am a software engineer.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
I went to MIT.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
engineer in D.C.?
13
A.
Yes, I did.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
23
both math and computer science and was very interested in the
24
25
Q.
I was a teacher.
Yeah.
56-119
05:15
05:15
A.
engineering.
Q.
Latin School.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
A.
I do.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
2010.
13
Q.
So you had him for two -- two semesters or two full years?
14
A.
Two semesters.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
A.
That's correct.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
peers.
56-120
05:16
participated.
classroom.
Q.
Was he outspoken?
A.
the classroom.
Q.
you aware?
A.
Quiet?
10
with.
11
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
18
MS. CLARKE:
Honor.
3246?
19
MR. MELLIN:
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. CLARKE:
22
17
05:17
evidence.
23
24
BY MS. CLARKE:
25
Q.
56-121
A.
I do.
Q.
And can you tell the -- you can actually touch the screen
A.
Q.
the world.
A.
Sure.
05:18
No.
9
05:17
(Laughter.)
10
Q.
11
A.
Sure.
12
I don't
13
14
15
16
17
but I was just goofing off and blowing off some steam after
18
school.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yeah.
21
Q.
22
background?
23
A.
24
25
Q.
I knew he
56-122
05:18
A.
Q.
overseas or politics?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
to meet parents?
10
A.
11
12
05:19
Yeah.
These were
It hadn't changed.
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
A.
18
they came to one of the open houses but -- the open houses you
19
20
interaction.
21
22
Q.
23
A.
I did not.
24
Q.
25
It's possible
56-123
05:19
05:20
A.
He did.
Q.
A.
fun to -- for a student that you get to see both as they enter
Q.
It's
10
THE COURT:
11
MR. MELLIN:
12
THE COURT:
13
14
BY MS. CLARKE:
15
Q.
16
A.
I do.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Thank you.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yeah.
24
Q.
25
A.
Sure.
56-124
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.
teacher.
world.
9
05:21
10
11
12
13
14
a calculation).
15
16
17
05:21
He brings a
He
His good
18
19
20
21
is well regarded by his peers and gets along well with everyone
22
in the class.
23
24
25
56-125
05:22
05:22
It
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
letter of recommendation?
A.
Absolutely.
Q.
And do you mean those things even as you sit here today?
10
A.
I do.
11
Q.
Where were you when you heard about the Boston Marathon
12
bombing?
13
A.
14
Q.
And did you have -- can you tell us what your thoughts
15
16
17
MR. MELLIN:
18
THE COURT:
Objection.
Sustained in that form.
19
BY MS. CLARKE:
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
was him at first because it just didn't make sense to me, and
What you heard -- when you learned that Jahar Tsarnaev was
Not at all.
56-126
Q.
Well, now that you know that it was him, what are your
MR. MELLIN:
THE COURT:
BY MS. CLARKE:
Q.
05:23
Sustained.
9
05:23
Objection.
MR. MELLIN:
Objection.
10
BY MS. CLARKE:
11
Q.
12
-- on the fact that you taught Jahar and you now know that
13
MR. MELLIN:
14
THE COURT:
15
BY MS. CLARKE:
16
Q.
Objection.
Sustained.
17
MR. MELLIN:
18
THE WITNESS:
19
MR. MELLIN:
20
Objection.
No, I don't.
Never mind.
Honor.
21
(Laughter.)
22
MS. CLARKE:
23
THE COURT:
24
MS. CLARKE:
25
56-127
05:24
05:24
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
self-motivated, correct?
A.
As a student?
Q.
Yes.
A.
Yes.
Q.
him, right?
10
A.
Yeah.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
Q.
Good.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
He was smart.
19
Q.
Thank you.
He was mature?
20
THE COURT:
Anything else?
21
All right.
22
23
MS. CONRAD:
24
25
56-128
last name for the record, keep your voice up, and speak into
3
4
THE WITNESS:
05:26
Last
name is R-O-C-H-E.
05:25
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONRAD:
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
And how long have you worked for the Marshal's Service?
14
A.
For 17 years.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes, ma'am.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
21
April 20th.
Excuse me.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
56-129
05:26
05:27
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
A.
the 21st.
Q.
A.
I do.
10
Q.
From the time of his arrest to, let's say, the date of his
11
12
13
A.
14
probably.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
hospital.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
A.
And tell us what your role was and how you came to
56-130
05:28
wing that he was being treated in, and then there was other law
Q.
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
that detail?
A.
10
Monday morning.
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
He was.
15
Q.
16
A.
Correct.
17
Q.
And after his transfer out of Beth Israel, did you have
18
19
05:28
But
20
MR. MELLIN:
irrelevant.
21
MS. CONRAD:
22
MR. MELLIN:
23
MS. CONRAD:
24
25
Well -- yeah.
56-131
1
2
3
4
THE COURT:
the point.
MS. CONRAD:
uncooperative.
MR. WEINREB:
10
11
12
MS. CONRAD:
He was physically --
13
14
talking --
15
Now we're
MR. MELLIN:
17
MS. CONRAD:
18
THE COURT:
16
19
05:29
Well, no.
9
05:29
and --
No, no.
20
MS. CONRAD:
21
MS. CLARKE:
22
MS. CONRAD:
23
THE COURT:
24
25
evidence is.
MS. CONRAD:
56-132
05:30
MR. WEINREB:
misled.
MS. CONRAD:
THE COURT:
10
11
MS. CONRAD:
12
THE COURT:
13
MS. CONRAD:
14
15
talking about --
17
18
THE COURT:
The
First of all --
16
05:30
I'm talking
I don't know.
is.
MS. CONRAD:
19
20
16(a)(1)(A)--
21
MR. WEINREB:
22
THE COURT:
23
24
25
I'm sorry.
MS. CONRAD:
56-133
MR. WEINREB:
cross-examination.
8
9
05:31
10
MS. CONRAD:
11
MR. WEINREB:
12
MS. CONRAD:
13
I'm
focusing --
14
05:32
THE COURT:
15
16
17
MS. CONRAD:
18
A more
Okay.
19
BY MS. CONRAD:
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
56-134
05:33
was -- he was pretty fresh from his discharge, and he may have
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
his face?
A.
I did.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
13
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
05:33
It seemed like he
And when you say "fresh from his discharge," did you
I'm sorry.
19
I don't know -- I
20
21
indication.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
I did.
25
Q.
56-135
05:34
05:35
A.
He did.
Q.
that was the day that Mr. Tsarnaev first came to this
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
A.
I have.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And by the way, what was your assignment that day on July
14
10, 2013?
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Yes, ma'am.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
And
I was part of the team that moved him from the facility
I believe I did.
56-136
Q.
Did he apologize?
A.
He did.
Q.
A.
MR. MELLIN:
THE COURT:
9
05:36
Objection to "others."
No.
Overruled.
BY MS. CONRAD:
10
Q.
11
12
And after you spoke with him that day, did you receive any
13
A.
14
Q.
Yes.
15
A.
He was.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
05:36
Yes.
In your presence.
19
what we had observed and informed him that that was not going
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
And did he engage in any other behavior like that that day
I'm done.
I'm sorry."
56-137
05:37
in the cellblock?
A.
Q.
in the cellblock?
A.
Q.
A.
Anyone or him?
10
Q.
Other detainees.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
05:38
14
15
A.
16
17
18
significant.
19
20
MS. CONRAD:
21
22
MS. CONRAD:
23
24
25
Different
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MELLIN:
I don't
56-138
05:39
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
correct?
A.
In July?
Q.
Yes.
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Now, Ms. Conrad just asked you about your experience and
12
13
Did you ever see him make a peace sign that day?
14
A.
In my opinion, no.
15
Q.
Did he ever once put his hands up like this during that
16
17
18
MS. CONRAD:
for itself.
19
05:39
THE COURT:
20
BY MR. MELLIN:
21
Q.
I agree.
22
MS. CONRAD:
23
THE COURT:
24
BY MR. MELLIN:
25
Q.
Objection.
Sustained.
What gestures did you see the defendant make, and what
56-139
gestures were the reasons for why he was talked to that day?
THE COURT:
05:40
05:40
THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
A.
Sure.
You can
10
Q.
11
12
MS. CONRAD:
13
THE COURT:
14
BY MR. MELLIN:
15
Q.
Objection.
A little foundation.
16
MS. CONRAD:
Objection.
17
THE COURT:
18
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
Yes.
19
BY MR. MELLIN:
20
Q.
21
context of what happened after you saw that gesture, what did
22
23
MS. CONRAD:
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
Overruled.
If I could elaborate?
56-140
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
Yes.
A.
MS. CONRAD:
THE COURT:
MS. CONRAD:
THE COURT:
10
MS. CONRAD:
11
THE COURT:
12
than --
13
MR. MELLIN:
14
BY MR. MELLIN:
15
Q.
16
17
MS. CONRAD:
18
THE COURT:
19
05:41
I don't know --
9
05:41
Objection.
question.
20
Objection.
Again, you can have the second part of the
I perceived it as defiance.
The way
21
22
23
BY MR. MELLIN:
24
Q.
25
56-141
05:42
05:42
MS. CONRAD:
Objection.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Go ahead.
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
correct?
A.
I did not see him make the sign when he initially made it.
10
11
12
to discuss that with him, I don't even know if I knew what the
13
sign was.
14
15
MR. MELLIN:
I --
16
MS. CONRAD:
In
17
18
19
20
THE COURT:
21
BY MR. MELLIN:
22
Q.
23
indicate that you went to see the defendant after that incident
24
happened, correct?
25
A.
That is correct.
56-142
05:43
05:43
Q.
A.
for it.
Q.
A.
10
I'm done.
11
Q.
12
13
MS. CONRAD:
14
THE COURT:
15
BY MR. MELLIN:
16
Q.
17
18
MS. CONRAD:
19
THE COURT:
20
circumstances.
21
MR. MELLIN:
All right.
22
MS. CONRAD:
Nothing further.
23
THE COURT:
24
25
I'm sorry."
step down.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You may
56-143
MR. BRUCK:
THE CLERK:
last name, and spell both for the record, if you would, and
8
9
05:46
05:45
BY MR. BRUCK:
10
Q.
11
A.
Good afternoon.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
What sort of work have you done for most of your career?
15
A.
Corrections.
16
Q.
17
Bureau of Prisons?
18
A.
Yes, I am.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
22
of incarceration.
23
Q.
How long did you work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons?
24
A.
25
Q.
56-144
05:46
05:47
A.
Q.
2006?
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
years.
14
Q.
15
Prisons and with the consulting work that you have done since,
16
17
18
A.
Yes, I am.
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Now, I'd like to ask you a little bit more about your
24
25
56-145
05:48
05:48
A.
Q.
Prisons, in 1978?
A.
Correct.
Q.
assignments.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
11
institution?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
All right.
18
19
A.
20
Oxford, Wisconsin.
21
facility.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yes.
56-146
05:49
05:49
Q.
the country?
A.
Q.
Okay.
country?
A.
Yes.
10
them.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
Yeah.
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
Sure.
19
A.
20
21
of Prisons.
22
23
Q.
24
A.
Excuse me.
25
Q.
56-147
05:50
high-security prison?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
10
11
Q.
12
05:50
Very well.
And you say that Marion was at that time the most -- sort
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
A.
17
18
City.
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
24
25
Colorado.
And during the time you were at Marion and during that
Yes.
56-148
Q.
A.
ADX.
Q.
Did you have any role in selecting the inmates who were
A.
Q.
9
05:51
05:52
Yes.
Thank you.
And just to move this along, did you also stay involved at
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
All right.
17
A.
18
19
Q.
After that?
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
56-149
05:53
05:53
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
property.
outdated.
He retired.
It was becoming
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
death row?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
So you were the warden for death row as well as for the
18
larger penitentiary?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
25
A.
56-150
05:54
05:55
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
measures?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
measures?
16
A.
17
the outside world, but there are few exceptions which are
18
19
Attorney's Office.
20
Q.
21
22
terrorist offenses?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
conviction?
Okay.
It's called --
56-151
05:55
05:56
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
or limited?
10
A.
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
Who decides?
17
A.
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
that correct?
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
Without going into all of that, when you say "the FBI,"
25
All right.
56-152
05:57
05:57
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
media or from the media; he's not allowed to have contact with
16
17
18
Q.
19
question was:
20
invoked, correct?
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
23
what agency?
24
A.
Department of Justice.
25
Q.
56-153
05:58
05:58
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Department of Justice.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, it is.
Q.
All right.
10
11
12
A.
13
renewal.
14
Q.
15
one year?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
Yes, it has.
20
Q.
All right.
21
22
renewed?
23
A.
24
Q.
25
56-154
05:59
these procedures?
A.
Colorado.
Q.
MR. BRUCK:
THE COURT:
Any objection?
10
BY MR. BRUCK:
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes, I do.
13
Q.
14
THE COURT:
15
16
06:00
Yes.
17
MR. MELLIN:
18
THE COURT:
19
Okay.
20
BY MR. BRUCK:
21
Q.
22
complex?
23
A.
Yes, it is.
24
Q.
25
prisons?
56-155
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is that ADX?
A.
Yes, it is.
Q.
06:01
06:01
MR. BRUCK:
3254, please.
BY MR. BRUCK:
Q.
A.
Yes, it is.
10
Q.
All right.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
By the way, when was the last time you visited ADX?
13
A.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
23
24
A.
25
56-156
06:02
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Or H?
A.
H unit, yes.
Q.
H unit?
All right.
10
inmates?
11
A.
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
and get you just to describe what the limitations are that
17
18
06:03
All right.
It's been
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Q.
It's got to be
56-157
06:04
06:04
approved?
A.
Q.
A.
agent from the FBI and somebody from the Federal Bureau of
Prisons.
Q.
10
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
one.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Here it's
Yeah.
56-158
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
restrictions are?
06:05
06:05
Very well.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
So if an inmate is unmarried --
12
A.
13
Q.
14
parents?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
56-159
06:06
06:07
inmate.
sit.
phone, and they would do -- they would conduct the visit that
way.
Q.
A.
One.
Q.
10
A.
None.
11
Q.
None?
12
A.
None.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
None.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
photocopied.
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
A.
Immediate family.
If it's
Incoming
It's read by
56-160
06:08
06:08
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
10
immediate family?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, it is.
15
Q.
16
block?
17
A.
18
cell.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
23
24
inside of H unit?
25
A.
This is
56-161
06:09
06:10
Q.
done --
A.
there are.
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
I understand.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
H unit today?
13
A.
14
Q.
All right.
15
unit?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
be renewed annually?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Are there some prisoners who may spend many years under
23
these procedures?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Thirty-four cells.
56-162
06:10
06:11
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Or --
10
A.
Or attorney general.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yeah.
13
Q.
14
A.
Right.
15
Q.
16
17
18
SAMs?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
attorney general.
24
Q.
25
Does
56-163
06:12
06:13
A.
Q.
can that -- does the Bureau of Prisons have the power to send
10
say-so?
11
A.
12
Q.
Do you know how many -- since 2002 -- and that is the time
13
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
56-164
06:13
06:14
A.
Yes.
Q.
have ended up --
MR. MELLIN:
THE COURT:
BY MR. BRUCK:
Q.
10
Can you list some of the offenses for which people are
11
MR. MELLIN:
12
THE COURT:
All right.
13
MR. BRUCK:
14
THE COURT:
All right.
15
BY MR. BRUCK:
16
Q.
17
18
19
MR. MELLIN:
20
THE COURT:
21
22
23
24
25
Objection.
I think I have to see you.
jury:)
MR. BRUCK:
56-165
2
3
MR. MELLIN:
MR. WEINREB:
Correct.
10
here, Mr. Bruck has now shown the photo of ADX from the sky,
11
12
13
in a single cell.
14
15
16
He has now
THE COURT:
He's trying to --
17
06:16
9
06:15
18
BY MR. BRUCK:
19
Q.
20
21
he were sent to ADX, and then at some point in the future the
22
23
24
25
remain at ADX?
56-166
06:17
A.
Q.
A.
categories.
them separatees.
and that's based upon the nature of the offense that the inmate
10
is sentenced under.
11
12
13
is.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
Very well.
17
ADX.
18
06:17
All right.
19
20
21
22
23
MR. MELLIN:
May we approach
on this point?
24
THE COURT:
All right.
25
56-167
1
2
were using Mr. Bezy to get into his records for the two years
Mr. Bezy was going to say, but Mr. Bruck represented to me that
06:19
MR. MELLIN:
06:18
jury:)
MR. BRUCK:
10
summary, and Mr. Mellin told me if it's the usual thing that
11
12
13
14
15
on April 19th?
16
17
18
contention.
19
20
21
How many
MR. MELLIN:
22
It's one
23
24
what the BOP does and the procedures the BOP follows.
25
It's
56-168
reviewing records.
9
06:19
10
MR. BRUCK:
THE COURT:
12
13
14
MR. BRUCK:
15
THE COURT:
Yeah.
16
17
MR. BRUCK:
18
So I don't believe
11
Okay.
19
06:20
CROSS-EXAMINATION
20
BY MR. MELLIN:
21
Q.
22
A.
Good afternoon.
23
Q.
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
56-169
06:21
walk-through, correct?
A.
complex.
institutions.
10
11
06:22
And, actually, I
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
2005.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
was 2005?
20
A.
21
Q.
Right.
22
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
correct?
Right.
And when was that that you did this fly-in from
Wait.
That
56-170
06:22
06:23
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
2005.
Q.
Right.
A.
Q.
To the H unit?
A.
H unit, yes.
Q.
I thought you said the last time you were there was 2005.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
you go into?
16
A.
17
18
19
Q.
20
correct?
21
A.
22
Q.
And when you say you're looking down the range, that means
23
you're looking down the hallway, but the cells are actually off
24
25
A.
Right.
So when you say you went into the H unit, what did
Right.
Correct.
56-171
06:23
06:24
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
that, right?
A.
Right.
Q.
Now, you talked about the SAMs issues, yet you've never
worked at ADX, and I think you just testified that it's your
ADX.
10
A.
11
Q.
Right.
12
13
correct?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
17
follow, correct?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
lapsed, correct?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
where their SAMs have lapsed and they are now either in another
24
25
A.
Correct.
You understand, of
It's up to the
56-172
06:24
06:25
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
Q.
Mr. Bezy?
A.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
14
that calls down here and talks to the local FBI field office.
15
16
a recommendation.
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
Right.
23
24
25
A.
Right.
It's possible.
56-173
06:26
06:26
Q.
A.
Q.
year, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
MR. BRUCK:
THE WITNESS:
10
THE COURT:
11
12
BY MR. MELLIN:
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Not by a court?
16
A.
You're right.
17
Q.
What happens?
18
A.
19
20
Q.
Right.
21
A.
To DOJ.
22
Q.
Right.
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
56-174
06:27
06:27
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
You're not?
A.
No.
Q.
10
11
MR. BRUCK:
Objection.
12
THE COURT:
Overruled.
13
14
THE WITNESS:
No.
15
BY MR. MELLIN:
16
Q.
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
Right.
22
A.
23
Q.
Or maybe 1995?
24
A.
Possible, yes.
25
Q.
56-175
06:27
06:28
A.
Yes.
Q.
right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And as you sit here today, you can't predict how long
correct?
MR. BRUCK:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
10
Go ahead.
11
THE WITNESS:
12
while, yes.
13
BY MR. MELLIN:
14
Q.
15
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
And you're not aware that the defense moved to vacate the
56-176
Q.
A.
MR. BRUCK:
afield.
06:28
06:29
THE COURT:
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
10
11
A.
12
correct.
13
Q.
Are you aware that every year inmates come off SAMs?
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
Every year?
17
possible, though.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
You would agree that when the SAMs come down, someone
25
56-177
06:30
06:30
A.
Q.
Yes.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
correct?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
And just so we're all clear there, that means ADX isn't
17
18
penitentiary, correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Prisons.
23
24
25
56-178
06:31
06:32
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
But in the -- in
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
inmate has a high notoriety and if his life, his security would
16
17
18
Q.
19
A.
Correct.
20
Q.
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
23
24
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A.
No.
They're
And
56-179
06:32
06:33
Q.
No?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
phases.
Q.
Right.
10
A.
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inmate.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
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19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
There are inmates that have been there since 1994, and they
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25
Q.
Right.
Correct.
56-180
06:33
06:34
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
You were the one who thought it was a good idea to have
10
11
A.
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13
14
15
beyond Phase 1.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
That's fine.
The
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06:34
06:35
A.
Yes.
Q.
And the reason why you have that is because you want to
A.
Correct.
Q.
MR. BRUCK:
Objection.
THE COURT:
10
BY MR. MELLIN:
11
Q.
12
A.
Please.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
restrictive environment.
16
Q.
And why?
17
A.
With the eventual goal of them working their way out of,
18
19
Q.
And why?
20
A.
Because it's -- it was the goal that some inmates met and
21
22
Q.
23
24
MR. BRUCK:
Objection.
25
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Sustained.
That's -- I think
56-182
06:36
06:36
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
correct?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
A.
2002.
13
Q.
All right.
14
right?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
Right.
21
A.
22
out.
23
Q.
24
right?
25
A.
Now, you were the warden at Terre Haute from 2004 to 2006,
Correct.
56-183
06:37
06:38
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
You're aware that there are violent acts that happen every
A.
Yes.
MR. BRUCK:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
Scope.
10
inmates?
11
A.
In a U.S.P.?
12
Q.
Yes.
13
A.
14
together.
15
16
work, they program, they eat in the dining room together, and
17
18
communicate.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
correct?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
They work
Yes, they
56-184
1
2
There's no
Yeah, sustained.
MR. BRUCK:
BY MR. MELLIN:
Q.
MR. BRUCK:
Same objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. MELLIN:
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
MR. BRUCK:
14
BY MR. MELLIN:
15
Q.
Objection.
16
THE COURT:
17
18
06:39
9
06:38
MR. BRUCK:
jury:)
19
MR. BRUCK:
20
THE COURT:
21
22
23
24
MR. MELLIN:
25
THE COURT:
Well, your Honor, but that's not -I don't want to go to general -- the point
56-185
come down.
THE COURT:
10
11
it's got to be tied to the present terms that are in the SAMs.
12
13
MR. MELLIN:
But
In the
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. MELLIN:
16
the Court's ruling concerning the violent acts, where there are
17
18
06:40
06:40
MR. MELLIN:
THE COURT:
Well, no.
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20
21
the SAMs, and what they preclude and what in their absence is
22
23
24
25
MR. WEINREB:
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06:41
06:42
MR. BRUCK:
They've been
10
11
years.
12
13
14
15
16
MR. MELLIN:
It doesn't need to be
17
18
not fair to draw these very fine lines and say, "I'm going to
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20
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22
completely different.
23
24
25
THE COURT:
56-187
this case --
THE COURT:
MR. WEINREB:
THE COURT:
MR. WEINREB:
06:42
THE COURT:
MR. BRUCK:
Yeah.
No, no.
12
THE COURT:
13
Mr. Mellin.
Time?
14
MR. MELLIN:
Quite a bit.
15
16
maybe.
17
18
06:43
be taken of that.
10
11
8
9
MR. BRUCK:
Probably 20 or 30 minutes,
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. MELLIN:
21
22
THE COURT:
23
MR. MELLIN:
24
25
about --
56-188
MR. WEINREB:
trivial or collateral.
06:43
MR. BRUCK:
The
motion now and you could rule that out rather than spend 20
10
Leavenworth.
11
12
13
14
Bureau of Prisons.
15
MR. MELLIN:
16
17
18
19
06:44
MR. WEINREB:
20
a minute.
21
witness at the very end of the day to try to examine him to the
22
23
cross-examine him.
24
25
very important.
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THE COURT:
THE COURT:
We're going to take the recess for the day and resume tomorrow
06:45
All right.
case with yourselves or anybody else, and avoid any news media
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11
12
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15
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18
19
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22
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24
25
THE CLERK:
We'll see
The
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C E R T I F I C A T E
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