19AV-FA-11-1273

Filed in First Judicial District Court

1/23/2014 2:10:14 PM
Dakota County, MN

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STATE OF MINNESOTA

COUNTY OF DAKOTA

DISTRICT COURT
FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT

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Sandra Sue Grazzini-Rucki,

Petitioner,

vs.

David Victor Rucki,

File No. 19AV-FA-11-1273

Respondent.

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Transcript: Morning session of September 12, 2013

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The above-entitled matter came duly on for

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hearing before the Honorable David L. Knutson, one

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of the judges of the above-named Court, on the

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12th day of September 2013, at the Dakota County

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Judicial Center, City of Hastings, State of

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Minnesota.

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APPEARANCES:
Michelle MacDonald, Attorney at Law,
appeared on behalf of the Petitioner.

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Lisa Elliott, Attorney at Law, appeared

on behalf of the Respondent.

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INDEX PAGE

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Witness:

Julie Friedrich

Direct by Ms. Elliott, Page 9

Cross by Ms. MacDonald, Page 27

Cross by Mr. Jerabek, Page 47

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David V. Rucki

Direct by Ms. Elliott, Page 57

Cross by Ms. MacDonald, Page 86

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Cross by Mr. Jerabek, Page 87

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Redirect by Ms. Elliott, Page 91

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Recross by Ms. MacDonald, Page 94

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EXHIBITS

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Exhibit No. 12

Marked, Page 10, Received, Page 12

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Exhibit No. 13

Marked, Page 10, Received, Page 15

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Exhibit No. 12A

Marked, Page 55, Received, Page 56

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Exhibit No. 14

Marked, Page 91, received, Page 92

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Exhibit No. 15

Marked, Page 91, Received, Page 92

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Exhibit No. 16

Marked, Page 91,

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19AV-FA-11-1273

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P R O C E E D I N G S

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(Whereupon, the following proceedings of

September 12, 2013 (a.m.) were duly had:)

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THE COURT:
here.

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We're going to go on the record

We're going to -MS. MACDONALD:

record.

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

No, you're not.

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THE COURT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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THE COURT:

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I'm putting something on the

Yes, I am.

No, you're not.

Is this on the record?

No.

We're going to leave the

courtroom until the deputy is back in here.

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(Off the record).

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(Recess taken).

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THE COURT:

Okay.

We'll go on the record

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here.

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Grazzini-Rucki versus David Victor Rucki, File

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Number 19-AV-FA-11-1273.

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custody parenting time and child support matter.

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This is the case of Sandra Sue

This is day two of the

Deputy, as I understand -- I left the

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courtroom when Ms. MacDonald was demanding a copy

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of yesterday's record from my court reporter and

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demanding that the discussion be on the record.

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We simply left the courtroom and I understand some

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things occurred and I've asked you to tell her to

come back into the courtroom.

in?

Is she coming back

DEPUTY GONDER:

She was down at the end of

the hallway, Judge.

just takes a second to walk down.

She's coming back now.

THE COURT:

(Off the record.)

THE COURT:

It

Okay.

Okay.

Ms. MacDonald and her

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client have returned to the courtroom.

We are on

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the record, Ms. MacDonald.

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as you were entering into a discussion with my

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court reporter about things on the record and

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demanding a copy of the transcript or a recording

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or something from yesterday, and I understand some

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things happened, and you were attempting to take

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photographs or something of the courtroom.

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you know, as an attorney, licensed to practice in

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the state of Minnesota, there is no recording or

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picture taking or videoing of any court

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proceedings in the courtroom.

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is the transcribed record by the court reporter.

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So we're going to proceed here with day two

I left the courtroom

And

The official record

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of the custody parenting time and child support

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case.

And --

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MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

Your Honor?

Ms. MacDonald.
Can I make a motion?

Ms. MacDonald, you may.

Can I make a motion?

Yes, you may.

Well, yesterday in court we

were not off the record at all.

And this morning,

you know, it's supposed to start at 9:00 and we

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weren't off the record either.

And I'm making a

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motion that you restore your -- the kids to Ms.

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Grazzini and restore all of her property.

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also, I put you on notice of a Federal lawsuit,

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and you were going to hold us in default if we --

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and forcing us to proceed.

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yourself.

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were brought forth to you that this was a wrongful

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taking and so I'd like you to immediately restore

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to Ms. Grazzini her five children and her

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property, all of her property, and free her up

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from the no-contact, third-party incarceration

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order.

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have heard enough facts yesterday to -- to -- to

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do this.

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her, you know -- you heard enough yesterday --

And

I'd like you to recuse

And also yesterday, all of the facts

And I think you heard enough -- you should

So, I'm asking you to, again, restore

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restore her children to her and her property and

to acknowledge or, you know -- I notified you two

days ago that we filed a Federal civil lawsuit

against you, under the civil rights -- under 1983,

1985.

restore -- so, I'm asking you to do that.

you.

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And so, you have to recuse yourself, and

THE COURT:

Okay.

Thank

Well, Ms. MacDonald, we

have previously had these discussions.

This is

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what this trial is about is who's going to have

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custody and parenting time and when, and what the

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schedule will be, what child support will be paid.

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That's what this hearing is all about, and that's

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why we're here.

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end to this.

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stability to this family, and that's what this

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hearing is for.

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restore her children and her property, well,

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that's not going to happen.

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according to the Rules of Law and according to the

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law of the state of Minnesota.

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that's denied at this time.

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That's why we want to bring an

We want to try to restore some

And for you to just simply say

We're going to do it

With respect -- so

With respect to you notifying me that I've

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been made a party to some Federal lawsuit for

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civil rights violations, I'm not aware of that.

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have no information about it.

about that.

this matter for these parties and we're going to

continue with this hearing here today.

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We're going to proceed to resolve

MS. MACDONALD:

Can I just say I made you

aware of it.

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

I'm not concerned

yesterday.

Yes, you did.

I wrote a letter to you

I thought we were on the record when I

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told you, did you get my letter?

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yes.

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And you said,

Was that part on the record yesterday?

THE COURT:

I don't know.

It might have

been.

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MS. MACDONALD:

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THE COURT:

It was in open court.

Well, then it probably was.

You told me.

But,

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yes, I admit that.

I admitted that

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I received a letter.

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served me with some 300-million dollar Federal

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lawsuit about something and served -- or going to

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file against something personally -- but I'm not

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going to hold that against your client or

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prejudice your client based on something that you

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do.

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going to be determined according to the law and

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the facts that are presented.

You informed me that you had

So, we're going to proceed and this matter is

And today is the

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second day that we have the opportunity to

continue this matter and to present those facts.

So that's what we're going to do today.

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MS. MACDONALD:

Well, I notified you

yesterday that it had been filed.

THE COURT:

And I told you -- I told you

yesterday that that's irrelevant as far as I'm

concerned.

MS. MACDONALD:

But it concerns you.

A civil

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rights complaint class action 42 U.S.C. 1983, 1985

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against you personally, and individual John and

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Mary Does 1 through 20, and it's on behalf of

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Sandra and her kids and those similarly situated.

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I -- I -- I thought that would be on the record

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and now I'm wondering because yesterday -- or I

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was told that she didn't record all of yesterday.

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Nothing was off the record.

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THE COURT:

I just want to get --

Everything was on the record

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yesterday.

I'm sure that was on the record

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yesterday.

I admit that that was on the record

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yesterday.

I admit that I received that letter.

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I admit you told me that yesterday.

And now

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you're telling me that again today.

And you're

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doing this for the sole reason to delay these

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proceedings and to further complicate the issues

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in this case and to further prejudice these five

children, and I'm not going to allow that to

happen.

We're going to focus on these five children.

We're not going to worry about other things that

are happening outside of the facts of this case.

So we're going to proceed and then you can pursue

whatever remedies you wish following this trial.

You've known about this case since last June.

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We're going to continue with this today.

So,

Ms. Elliott, your next witness.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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Thank you, Your Honor.

We call

Julie Friedrich to the stand.

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JULIE FRIEDRICH

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After having been duly sworn, was examined

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and testified as follows:

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THE CLERK:

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For the record, please state your

full name and spell your first and last name.

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THE WITNESS:

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My name is Julie Friedrich,

J-u-l-i-e, F-r-i-e-d-r-i-c-h.

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THE CLERK:

Thank you.

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THE COURT:

Okay.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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Ms. Elliott.

Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

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BY MS. ELLIOTT:

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Ms. Friedrich, you were the Guardian ad Litem --

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the former Guardian ad Litem for these -- the five

children in this matter, is that correct?

Correct.

When were you appointed Guardian ad Litem?

I was appointed on July 14th of 2011.

And when did you last serve as Guardian ad Litem

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for the children?

A

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I was dismissed from this case on May 17th of

2013.

Okay.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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THE COURT:

You may.

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THE CLERK:

Exhibits 12 and 13 are marked for

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identification.

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Your Honor, may I approach?

(Whereupon, Exhibits Numbers 12 and 13 were

marked for identification.)
MS. ELLIOTT:

And for the parties and the

Court, this is Exhibit 106 in our book.

MS. MACDONALD:

Your Honor, I'm going to

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state for the record, again, I object to these

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proceedings.

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and I also object to that document.

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that objection -- notice of objection because it's

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completely hearsay.

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objecting to this witness.

There's no evidence of jurisdiction

We did get

And this witness -- I'm

She is not a witness

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to anything, so I'm objecting.

THE COURT:

Okay.

The objection is noted and

the objection is overruled.

and we'll proceed.

MS. MACDONALD:

The statute is clear

I also want to state for the

record that your order specifically had this woman

just to work on parenting time and how it imploded

to a loss of her entire property and children

is -- is beyond me.

So I'm putting on the record

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that she was only supposed to do her job of --

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of -- if she even had authorization to deal with

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parenting time and that was you that gave her

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those directives, and you alone, and that's all

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she was supposed to do.

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that on the record.

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THE COURT:

So I just want to put

All right.

Thank you.

You're

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welcome to make those points with the witness

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through your cross-examination.

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MS. MACDONALD:
Judge.

I want to make the points to you.

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THE COURT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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I'm not making -- You're the

Right.

You're welcome to make --

And the guardian's attorney

just said we were the petitioner.

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THE COURT:

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MS. ELLIOTT:

Okay.

We'll proceed.

Thank you, Your Honor.

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BY MS. ELLIOTT:

Ms. Friedrich, I'm showing you what has been

marked as Exhibit 12.

stack of documents and identify it for the Court.

Can you look through this

This looks like several of the reports if not all

of the reports that I filed regarding parenting

time in this case.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, we would offer

Exhibit 12.

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THE COURT:

Okay.

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MS. MACDONALD:

And, Ms. MacDonald?

Objection.

Objection,

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relevance, foundation, everything.

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copy of that.

Where is that?

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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THE COURT:

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It's 106 in our book.

The objection is overruled.

(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 12 was received in

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evidence.)

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BY MS. ELLIOTT:

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Ms. Friedrich, I'm showing you now what's been

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marked as Exhibit 13.

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the Court.

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Okay.

Exhibit 12 is received.

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And I want a

Can you identify that for

The very first document -- the second document

looks to be like my Notice of Motion and Motion

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and my affidavit when I requested to be dismissed

from this matter.

from the children, the two children I believe who

are missing.

and blogs from what I know to be the Carver County

Corruption website.

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It goes on.

There's letters

There are, it looks like, excerpts

Were those attachments to your motion to be

dismissed from this case?

Yes.

I don't know that Exhibit B -- I think that

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they attached all of the blog.

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the ones that I believed were threatening or

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referred to me in my affidavit.

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attached them all so that the Court could see

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where they were taken from.

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And I referenced

But I think they

Okay.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

We would offer Exhibit 13.

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MS. MACDONALD:

Objection.

Hearsay,

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irrelevant.

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She -- I asked that she be removed and she decided

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that she objected to that, got an attorney, then

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she removes herself after I spent hours helping my

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client to get her removed, she's been complained

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about, so I'm objecting to that piece of evidence.

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This woman is not even a guardian.

THE COURT:
number --

Okay.

What is 13?

What

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MS. ELLIOTT:

It's the second half of 106.

just separated the document.

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

MS. ELLIOTT:

Starting where?

We need to know where.

There should be a piece of

paper dividing them.

Motion and Motion of the Guardian ad Litem.

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THE COURT:

Okay.

MS. MACDONALD:

Do you want to point that

The pages aren't numbered.

How many pages is that document single spaced?

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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It starts with the Notice of

out to Ms. MacDonald?

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Single spaced.
How many pages is that

document completely?

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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filed in the court.

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MS. MACDONALD:

This is the motion that was

I just want to get for the

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record how many pages this giant thousand-page --

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is -- that I'm expected to cross-examine a witness

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on.

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many pages is this?

I just want to get that for the record.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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How

I haven't counted them.

Well, let's count them.
I can have my legal assistant

count them while I'm doing the rest of my direct

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if that's okay with the Court?

THE COURT:
received.

That's fine.

Exhibit 13 is

Objections are overruled.

(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 13 was received in

evidence.)
MS. MACDONALD:

Mine is Exhibit 106.

I have is Exhibit 106.

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

The one

It doesn't say Exhibit 13.

Correct, because they've been -Now I'm debilitated again

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because I don't even see what that exhibit is.

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have Exhibit 106.

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THE COURT:

Ms. MacDonald, Ms. Elliott

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provided you a courtesy copy of all of the

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exhibits that she was going to use in this case.

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And as we go through the trial, the documents are

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presented to my Clerk of Court and they are marked

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for the court exhibit numbers, not according to

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any other numbers.

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Exhibit 106 from your book there in front of you,

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the first part is marked as Exhibit 12 for entry

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into the court record.

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as Exhibit 13 for entry into the court record.

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She just showed you physically where the dividing

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point is of that exhibit.

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MS. MACDONALD:

So she apparently is taking

The second part is marked

So can I have a copy of the

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court exhibit?
THE COURT:

You have a copy of the court

exhibit.
MS. MACDONALD:

MS. ELLIOTT:

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

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Exhibit Number.

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I just have a copy

of what she gave me.

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I don't.

Which is a copy.
It's the same thing.
How do I know?

It's just marked with a Court

MS. MACDONALD:

How do I know it's the same

thing?
THE COURT:

Because that's what she told us.

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That's what she's presented to us.

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she's presented to you.

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MS. MACDONALD:

That's what

But her exhibit says 106 and

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now it's two exhibits split and she doesn't even

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have them numbered.

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THE COURT:

Correct.

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comes into a court.

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are presented.

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Elliott.

They get numbered when they

That's how it works.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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That's how evidence

Okay.

Ms.

Thank you, Your Honor.

So, then now I need to -- I

want to -- I need to mark these.

Because I can't

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do this.

at something that isn't even there.

it's a different thing.

--

saying.

not --

the B is the second exhibit?

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I'm debilitated right now.

I'm looking at something

I would like to split this up because I'm

did you -- Did you split this up and now

MS. ELLIOTT:

No, I just showed you where the

second exhibit started.

MS. MACDONALD:

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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I don't --

I'm debilitated right now, that's all I'm

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I am looking

Okay.
It starts at the Notice of

Motion and Motion.

(Whereupon, the court reporter interrupted

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due to the attorneys not speaking loud enough to

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make a record.)

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THE COURT:

Okay.

We're on the record, we

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need to maintain a record.

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each other and we need to talk loud enough so the

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court reporter can hear.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

We can't talk over

So --

For the record, Your Honor,

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what I did is, my Exhibit 106 in the book of the

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exhibits I was planning to introduce, I split it

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in two.

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now marked as Exhibit 12 as a trial exhibit, are

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all of the reports of the Guardian ad Litem, Julie

The first exhibit, which the Court has

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Friedrich.
Exhibit 13 is Julie Friedrich's Notice of

Motion and Motion of the Guardian ad Litem, her

affidavit and all of the attachments that were

filed with the Court along with her motion.

MS. MACDONALD:

I'm noting for the record,

her book has a divider, a blue divider.

have the blue divider in my book and I don't know

that the Court even has a blue divider.

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THE COURT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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THE COURT:

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I don't

I have a white divider.

I don't have a blue divider.

Ms. Elliott, could you show where

it's divided.
MS. ELLIOTT:

I did show Ms. MacDonald where

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the separation was between Exhibit 12 and 13 and I

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will do so again.

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MS. MACDONALD:

Can we at least number the

pages of the exhibit?

THE COURT:

No.

We're not going to number

the pages.
MS. ELLIOTT:

And, in fact, Your Honor, I

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will give her my blue divider -- I will give her

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my exhibit if she wants so she will know where the

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division is.

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MS. MACDONALD:

I'm asking the number of

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pages because we'll be doing this all day.

just pointing to something and I'm going to need

the pages numbered.

me.

It just makes more sense to

Is that okay that we number the pages?

MS. ELLIOTT:

A VOICE:

MS. ELLIOTT:

MS. MACDONALD:

She's

The Exhibit 13 has a 134 pages.

Hundred-twenty-four.
A hundred-twenty-four pages.
This says Exhibit 106, so

does Exhibit 13 have that many pages?

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MS. ELLIOTT:

Exhibit 13 has 124 pages.

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MS. MACDONALD:

She didn't count Exhibit 13.

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She counted your book.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

For the record, Rita Martin, my

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legal assistant, counted the pages on the document

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marked Exhibit 13 for trial.

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MS. MACDONALD:

But she didn't count the

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pages in that exhibit.

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(sic) that's in your book.

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that one, the one the Court's supposed to get.

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THE COURT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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That's not Exhibit 14

We want her to count

We don't need -And I'd like a copy of it.

want a copy of it.

THE COURT:

You have a copy of it.

We're

going to proceed here, okay?

MS. MACDONALD:

I don't have a copy of it.

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THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

You do have a copy of it.

No, I don't.

I don't have a

copy of the exhibit that just got entered.

THE COURT:

Okay.

MS. MACDONALD:

I don't have a copy of it

because it just got entered and nobody made a copy

for me.

THE COURT:

You have a copy right in front of

you.

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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of me.

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completely.

I provided counsel with a copy.

It's over there.

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THE COURT:

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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MS. MACDONALD:

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I don't have a copy in front

Okay.

I'm just debilitated

Ms. Elliott.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Your Honor, can I have the

witness count the pages of the exhibit?

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THE COURT:

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MS. ELLIOTT:

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BY MS. ELLIOTT:

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No.

Ms. Elliott.

Thank you.

Ms. Friedrich, do the reports summarize all of the

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work that you did in this matter regarding the

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Rucki children?

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Yes.

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And do they reflect any of the difficulties that

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you had in maintaining or obtaining contact with

these children?

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affidavit when I requested my dismissal.

Q

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Yes, the reports reflect that as well as the

And why did you request to be dismissed from this

case?

I requested a dismissal in this case because it

got to the point where I didn't feel as though I

could advocate for the best interests of the

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children due to false information that was

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provided to them.

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And what information was that?

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It's quite copious, and I can go through my

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affidavit.

What I remember off the top of my head

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is that the children were told things that I had

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said or done that were not true that compromised

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my ability to have rapport with them and to

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advocate for them.

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remember without even looking at my reports or my

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notes are that the child, Samantha, had been told

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that -- had been told that I called her fat.

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was told that I had forced Samantha to take a

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pregnancy test.

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diagnosed the children with mental health issues.

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I was told that I had recommended and/or ordered

And some of the things I can

I was informed that I had

19AV-FA-11-1273

22
1

the children to be on anti-depressants.

informed that I had been wandering the halls of

Lakeville spreading rumors that one of the

children, Samantha, was in juvie.

I had informed the children that the mother did

not want them anymore; that she would not get

them; that she would not have contact with them;

that she was in Philadelphia; that she was in a

mental health ward; that she was homeless.

10

I was

I was told that

All of these things are things that I believe

11

the children were told that are completely false.

12

I was informed that I was prescribing where the

13

children would receive dental care, medical care,

14

what extracurricular activities they would be in,

15

what church they would go to.

It goes on.

16

So none of that information is correct?

17

None of it.

18

Do you know where this information came from to

19
20

the children?
A

21
22

I believe the information came from the mother to

the children.

23

Did you find dad to be cooperative in your role as

Guardian ad Litem?

24

Yes.

25

Did you find mother to be cooperative in your role

19AV-FA-11-1273

23
1

as Guardian ad Litem?

No.

Besides the examples that you've already given,

4
5

how else was mother uncooperative?

A

The first clear incident where the mother was

uncooperative was the day that I was doing home

visits at all three schools with all five

children.

I was informed that both of those children were

And upon arriving to the first school,

10

home sick.

When I arrived at the second school,

11

that was the high school, I was informed that the

12

mother had called the school and informed the

13

school that I did not have authorization to visit

14

with the child, Nico; that I did not have proper

15

identification and that her attorney, Lisa Henry,

16

had advised her not to allow me to visit the

17

children.

18

some difficulty, despite the fact that I did have

19

proper identification, proper paperwork, and the

20

authority to visit with the children.

21

difficulty getting that visit started.

22

drama.

23

principal, the office administration, everybody

24

got involved and it delayed my getting started

25

with my visit with Nico.

So when I was at the high school, I had

I had some
There was

There was a juvenile officer there, the

19AV-FA-11-1273

24
1

At the elementary school, the same series of

events happened, but I was expecting it, so I had

everything I needed and I had also called Lisa

Henry between the visits and asked her, did you

advise your client to tell the schools that I

don't have authority to visit these children?

Lisa Henry said, absolutely not.

guardian.

You have a right to visit these

children.

Please visit these children.

10

And

You're the

So at the elementary school I was meeting

11

with the two youngest children and I was meeting

12

with them together because Ms. Grazzini had

13

requested that I not meet with Gino alone.

14

Actually she told me that it was the doctor's

15

recommendation.

16

doctor, that wasn't true either.

17

Grazzini burst into my meeting with the two

18

youngest children and was very emotional and

19

dramatic and was screaming out loud, crying and

20

gesturing, saying:

21

Please don't take my babies, in front of the two

22

children.

23

out, I don't have the authority to take children.

24
25

When I checked that out with the

But, Ms.

Please, don't take my babies.

Who, as Ms. MacDonald correctly pointed

And had you ever recommended that the children be

taken from Ms. Grazzini-Rucki?

19AV-FA-11-1273

25
1

Never.

Were there any other reasons that you requested to

3
4

be removed as a Guardian ad Litem?

A

I'm briefly looking through my affidavit.

There's

other allegations that were made that just weren't

true.

know that each one is, alone, relevant.

became aware of the Carver County Corruption blog

and was alerted that there were some things on

The number of false allegations -- I don't

But I

10

there that could be conceived as threatening.

11

one of the -- when it began to talk about me

12

personally, my alleged mental health issues, my

13

career being threatened, when it began to talk

14

about my children and my family, I decided that it

15

was time for me to get off of this case.

16

addition to not being able advocate for the

17

children, I began to feel personally threatened.

18

What is the Carver County Corruption blog?

19

I'm not sure.

And

In

But it's -- my understanding, it's

20

a group of people that are -- feel that there is

21

corruption in the courts and only those people can

22

talk about that corruption on that site.

23

site that I don't believe is fact based, but

24

people can anonymously post things.

25

It's a

Did you ever see anything about the Rucki children

19AV-FA-11-1273

26
1

on that website?

Yes.

What was on that website about the Rucki children?

Several articles, just blogs in general, people

talking about the guardian, the Judge, the -- Dr.

Gilbertson, Dr. Reitman, other judges that they

were unhappy with.

I have a three-cent solution for these people, I

took that as a personal threat and I decided it's

10
11

But when I read the comment:

time for me to get off this case.

Q

12

Had Ms. Grazzini-Rucki made complaints against you

to your employer?

13

Yes, several.

14

And are those contained in your reports as well

15
16

and your motion to withdraw?

A

I don't know that those are contained.

I mean, we

17

had meetings.

18

boss, the Guardian ad Litem program director of

19

the whole state.

20

don't know that I referenced those complaints in

21

my affidavit or my reports.

22

allegations were made to me and to my boss during

23

these meetings.

24
25

She met with my boss, my boss's

I mean, there were meetings.

But some of these

The false allegations that you had testified to

earlier?

19AV-FA-11-1273

27
1

Yes.

MS. ELLIOTT:

I have nothing further.

Thank

you, Ms. Friedrich.

THE COURT:

Ms. MacDonald.
CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MACDONALD:

Could you please make sure that what I have from

Lisa Elliott matches what you have, and could you

count the pages of the documents --

10

You want me to count?

11

-- the pages of that exhibit?

12

Are there two

exhibits?

13

You want me to count Exhibit 12?

14

Are there two exhibits?

15

Yeah, exactly what --

16

Are there two exhibits here?

17
18

know if it matches exactly what I've been given.

A

So you want to start with Exhibit 12 and we'll

19

just compare page to page?

20

that?

21

22
23

And then I need to

How do you want to do

If you could just -- I guess you can't number

those because they are already --

They're numbered.

They're numbered.

So this is

24

November 1, 2011 and you have that right there on

25

top (indicating).

And that is -- correct.

19AV-FA-11-1273

28
1

Well, mine aren't numbered.

Your pages are numbered.

3
4

page -- so the first report is 14 pages.

Q

5
6

It's just the first

So can you see if what I have is the same as what

you have?

The first 14 pages?

I believe it was photocopied, so you'd have to

flip through while I flip through if you want to

do it that way.

9
10
11

I want you to look through it and make sure it's

accurate.
MR. JERABEK:

Your Honor, directing a witness

12

to look through it is inappropriate cross-

13

examination.

14

MS. ELLIOTT:

As an Officer of the Court, I

15

can state for the record that the copy that Ms.

16

MacDonald was provided is an exact copy except for

17

the blue dividers of the copy that I have in my

18

book and the copy that is now Exhibits 12 and 13.

19
20
21
22
23

THE COURT:

Okay.

Objection is sustained.

Would you like to ask her questions?

MS. MACDONALD:

I'd like -- maybe she could

count the pages and -THE COURT:

Ms. Friedrich -- Ms. Friedrich,

24

could you just look at the document that Ms.

25

MacDonald provided you and tell us if that's the

19AV-FA-11-1273

29
1

same exhibit in front of you?

THE WITNESS:

Exhibit 12, this is thicker, so

let's see where it ends -- and there is a blank

page after that, so this is what I have as

Exhibit 12 (indicating).

it was a photocopy, and so I can tell you that

this is the report from November 1st.

I told you it was 14 pages, so there's the 14

pages from the November 1st report, that's yours.

10

BY MS. MACDONALD:

11

12
13
14
15

Ms. Elliott's indicating

And I think

Can you go through each page and make sure it's

the same?
MS. ELLIOTT:

I'm going to object to that,

Your Honor.
THE COURT:

Objection sustained.

She's not

16

going to do that.

17

same report.

18

to you.

19

had a copy of those reports for months, if not

20

years.

21

witness?

22

She's testified that that's the

It was photocopied.

It's presented

It was provided to you yesterday.

You've

So, do you have any questions for this

MS. MACDONALD:

Well, I haven't had a copy

23

for years or months of this report.

The one that

24

I have -- well, the one that is marked Exhibit 106

25

I just got from Ms. Elliott.

19AV-FA-11-1273

30
1

THE COURT:

Okay.

MS. MACDONALD:

So the -- I mean, the --

without a copy of what's actually going into

evidence and marked, how am I to know that this

106 split up like this, and she had a blue sheet

in it, is the same one that you're going to get?

7
8
9
10

THE WITNESS:

Would it expedite matters to

just copy this and -THE COURT:

No, we're not going to do that

because that's what she has.

11

MS. MACDONALD:

12

THE COURT:

13

MS. MACDONALD:

It isn't what I have.

It's exactly what you have.

It's not exactly -- then --

14

then I need you to look at it and tell me that

15

it's exactly what I have.

16

something with holes in it marked 106.

17

-- I had a big book, giant book.

18

THE COURT:

What I have is
It's not

Then go page by page as Ms.

19

Friedrich initially recommended.

20

that right now?

21

MS. MACDONALD:

22

MS. ELLIOTT:

Why don't you do

Okay.
Your Honor, I'm just going to

23

object to this line of questioning as it's clearly

24

a tactic to delay.

25

(Whereupon, the court reporter interrupted

19AV-FA-11-1273

31
1

due to an overlapping discussion amongst the

parties.)

THE COURT:

Okay.

Listen, we're on the

record.

about the record.

record and that only one other person is talking.

Okay?

documents?

You, Ms. MacDonald, were so concerned

All right.

Don't talk unless we're on the

Do you have the separate

Ms. MacDonald, what do you want to do?

THE WITNESS:

This starts right here

10

(indicating).

So this is what I was showing you

11

as my first report -- report, November 1, 2011.

12

It is 14 pages.

So you have 14 pages?

13

BY MS. MACDONALD:

14

The one I have is not signed by Ms. Friedrich?

15

That's because it was emailed.

16
17

is filed with the Court is signed.

Q

18
19

I don't know if --

It's exactly the same.

This one is exactly the

same.
Q

22
23

Then that isn't the actual copy of what the Court

got.

20
21

But the copy that

How do I know on behalf of Ms. Grazzini that it is

exactly the same?

Because an Officer of the Court just testified

24

that this is the same.

25

copy as the exhibit.

She provided you the same

19AV-FA-11-1273

32
1

But the one I have isn't even signed.

It's the same as this (indicating).

But you didn't sign that one and you didn't sign

4
5

mine.
A

The signed copy is filed with the Court.

THE COURT:

10

Ms. Friedrich, do you want to

sign her copy?

8
9

So where is the signed copy?

THE WITNESS:

Can I have a pen?

BY MS. MACDONALD:
Q

11

Can you please read it before you sign it and make

sure it's exactly the same?

12

Yeah, I'll look at it.

13

Not compare it with mine, read it.

14

Why don't we just do both steps, because I could

15

look at this and this (indicating) and make sure

16

it's the same and sign them both?

17

Okay.

18

All right.

19

MS. ELLIOTT:

Ms. Friedrich, just for the

20

record, will you just note which report you're

21

signing -- which reports you are signing, the date

22

and how many pages they are?

23

THE WITNESS:

The one I'm looking at right

24

now is November 1, 2011, filed and signed with the

25

Court but emailed to the parties, so there's not a

19AV-FA-11-1273

33
1

signature because it was emailed.

And right now I'm looking -- even though you've

testified it's a copy -- The exhibit and Ms.

MacDonald's copy appear to be the same and I will

sign both. (Signing)

MS. MACDONALD:

And I just want to state for

the record that isn't my copy.

copy.

9
10

THE WITNESS:

It's 14 pages.

It's Ms. Elliott's

And I'm going to keep going?

MS. MACDONALD:

I'd like to mark that as an

11

exhibit, what she just signed, both of those that

12

she actually signed.

13

THE COURT:

14

THE WITNESS:

15

MS. MACDONALD:

16
17

Okay.
Exhibit 12 is marked.
The two that you just looked

through.
THE WITNESS:

Exhibit 12 is one of the two.

18

This was the copy that of was provided to you by

19

Ms. Elliott.

20

THE COURT:

Okay.

I'm going to instruct the

21

Court Clerk to go over there, to intact all of the

22

exhibits, the documents, so that we have a clear

23

set and we know what was marked as an exhibit and

24

what is -- the documents presented by Ms.

25

MacDonald.

Can we get that done right now?

19AV-FA-11-1273

34
1

MS. ELLIOTT:

Perhaps what we could do is

mark each of the separate reports like 12a, 12b of

the actual exhibit?

4
5

THE COURT:

No.

No.

We're just marking them

as Ms. MacDonald is requesting.

MS. ELLIOTT:

THE COURT:

Okay.
But I want to be clear what you

have offered to the Court.

up here with Ms. MacDonald and I want that clipped

10
11

So if you could come

so that the papers cannot be separated.

MS. MACDONALD:

The witness also said that

12

she -- she has a signed one that she sent to you,

13

so I think I would like to see that.

14
15
16
17
18

THE COURT:

We're going to go off the record,

while we figure out what was Exhibit 13 -MS. MACDONALD:

I want to stay on the record,

Your Honor.
THE COURT:

Well, then if we're going to stay

19

on the record people are not going to whisper.

20

We're going to talk out loud and we're going to

21

talk one person at a time.

22
23
24
25

Now, Ms. Elliott, what did you offer as

Exhibit 12?
MS. ELLIOTT:

Exhibit 12 includes all of the

reports of the Guardian ad Litem.

It includes one

19AV-FA-11-1273

35
1

report dated November 1, 2011, which is 14 pages.

It includes a report dated January 19, 2012, which

is 19 pages.

It includes --

THE WITNESS:

It's been signed.

MS. ELLIOTT:

And it is signed.

It includes

a report of Guardian ad Litem dated March 7, 2012,

which is ten pages but it is not signed, but

received by email from Ms. Friedrich to Lisa Henry

and myself.

And Lisa Henry was the attorney for

10

Sandra Grazzini-Rucki at the time.

11

report is dated April 30, 2012, and it is ten

12

pages long, again, not signed, received by email

13

and cc'd to myself and Lisa Henry.

14

Exhibit 12.

15

The next

That is

Exhibit 13 --

THE COURT:

Stop there.

Do you have Ms.

16

MacDonald's exhibit, documents that she presented

17

so we can clarify that the documents that were

18

provided to Ms. MacDonald are the same as

19

Exhibit 12?

20
21
22

MS. ELLIOTT:

Do you want me to go through

THE WITNESS:

I just went through as she went

them?

23

through and made sure each of the reports was

24

dated the same.

25

THE COURT:

And are they the same?

19AV-FA-11-1273

36
1
2
3

THE WITNESS:

And it was the same page

numbers.
THE COURT:

Okay.

Do we have those clipped

together for her so she can figure out what

consists of Exhibit 12?

MS. ELLIOTT:

So let the record reflect that

I am now clipping together the exhibit, the copy

of Exhibit 12 that I had previously provided to

Ms. MacDonald that I had marked in my exhibit book

10
11
12
13
14
15

as 106.

And I am providing that --

THE COURT:

But it's only a portion of your

Exhibit 106.
MS. ELLIOTT:

It's only a portion of our

Exhibit 106.
THE COURT:

But it accurately and completely

16

reflects the documents that are contained in

17

Exhibit 12?

18

MS. ELLIOTT:

19

THE COURT:

20

MacDonald.

21

Exhibit 12.

22

That is correct, Your Honor.

Okay.

Provide those to Ms.

Ms. MacDonald, there's your copy of

Okay.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Exhibit 13?
Exhibit 13 is a full and

23

complete copy of the Guardian ad Litem's Notice of

24

Motion and Motion of the Guardian ad Litem

25

dated -- signed and dated May 3, 2013.

And this

19AV-FA-11-1273

37
1

is her motion to be removed as the Guardian ad

Litem.

A. Friedrich, which is eight pages and then it

includes -- the remaining pages are exhibits to

that affidavit in support of her motion.

this was filed with the Court on May 10, 2013 and

all parties had been provided copies.

It includes her -- the affidavit of Julie

THE COURT:

MS. ELLIOTT:

All of

Okay.
And, Ms. Friedrich, I

10

believe -- did you go through the copy of

11

Exhibit 13 which in my book was the second half of

12

Exhibit 106 that I just described to the Court?

13

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

14

MS. ELLIOTT:

And are they the same?

15

THE WITNESS:

I believe -- I don't have any

16

reason to believe they are not the same.

17
18
19
20
21

THE COURT:

Okay.

Are they clipped together

now?
THE WITNESS:

This one needs a clip, Ms.

MacDonald's copy from Ms. Elliott (indicating).

MS. MACDONALD:

Ms. Elliott just said that

22

was a copy of what was in her book and it's still

23

not the exhibit because I just learned that Ms.

24

Friedrich sent something to you that was signed so

25

that isn't what she sent.

19AV-FA-11-1273

38
1

THE COURT:

Okay.

Provide those to Ms.

MacDonald.

provided to you is what you previously received.

It's the second half of Exhibit 106 from the

Respondent's attorney's notebook which is --

consists of the documents contained in the

Exhibit 13.

and 13 in front of you, Ms. Friedrich?

9
10
11
12
13

That, Ms. MacDonald, what's being

Okay.

THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:

Yes.
Ms. MacDonald, do you have any

further questions for this witness?

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

15

MS. MACDONALD:

17

I don't have the -- her

exhibit in front of me.

14

16

Do you have both Exhibits 12

Yes, you do.

No, I have something marked

106, so I just want to state that for the record.

THE COURT:

There is only one copy of an

18

exhibit.

There is only one exhibit.

19

copy of that exhibit.

20

That comes into the court record.

21

exact copy of that exhibit.

22

have any questions?

23

MS. MACDONALD:

You have a

There is only one exhibit.

Okay?

But you have an

Now, do you

I don't have an exact copy of

24

that exhibit because she just marked it and is

25

proceeding -- now you're telling me that my 106 --

19AV-FA-11-1273

39
1

or she is -- is identical?

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

4
5
6

Okay.

exhibit as I cross-examine her.

THE COURT:

Okay.

Do you have any questions

for her?

MS. MACDONALD:

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

10

So I need to look at that

Yes.

Okay.

You may proceed.

Can I look at her exhibit and

question her from that exhibit?

11

THE COURT:

You may.

12

MS. MACDONALD:

13

THE COURT:

On Page 14 --

Now, the witness, Ms. MacDonald,

14

in any case -- if you're asking her to look at

15

anything that's what has to come in to the court

16

record, because we don't know what she's looking

17

at now.

18

exhibit, that's how it works in the court when

19

you're presenting testimony.

Okay?

So, the witness needs to have the

20

MS. MACDONALD:

21

THE COURT:

I know, but I cannot --

Then you're going to have to

22

stand up next to the witness, I guess.

23

the document you're going to use and not rely on

24

the document that you have a copy of.

25

MS. MACDONALD:

If that's

But then I'm not able to take

19AV-FA-11-1273

40
1

notes or talk with my client.

THE COURT:

That's -- you can handle this any

way you want, but the only thing that this witness

is going to testify from is the exhibit that has

been marked and it's going to be recorded and

entered into the record here.

MS. MACDONALD:

It's already been entered

into the record.

THE COURT:

Yes, and so she needs to testify

10

to something that's in the record, not something

11

that's not in the record.

12

Officer of the Court.

13

attorney practicing law.

14

step up, if you want to ask her directly from the

15

document that's marked as an exhibit, that you

16

step up next to the witness and ask her those

17

questions or rely on the exact copy that's been

18

provided to you.

19

BY MS. MACDONALD:

20

21

You know this as an

You know this as an

So I would ask that you

Let me ask the witness, this report was dated

November 1, 2011?

22

Correct.

23

So that was -- how many months ago was that?

24

Well, it was 2011.

25

two years ago.

So November 2011, so almost

19AV-FA-11-1273

41
1

Exactly how many months?

Twenty-one.

Twenty-one months.

4
5

was provided to whom?

A

the attorneys.

Lisa Elliott.
Q

Provided to the Court?

It was filed with the Court and it was emailed to

And you're saying this report

At the time it was Linda Olup and

And where -- where does your record show that

there was an email to Lisa Elliott and Linda --

10

Lisa Elliott?

11

MR. JERABEK:

12

THE COURT:

13

BY MS. MACDONALD:

14

15

Objection, relevance.
Sustained.

Next question.

Do you have something in your file that indicates

that this report was provided to Lisa Elliott?

16

MR. JERABEK:

17

THE COURT:

18

BY MS. MACDONALD:

19

Objection, relevance.
Sustained.

Next question.

Do you have anything in your file that supports

20

your assertion that this reported Guardian ad

21

Litem was emailed to Ms. Grazzini's attorney,

22

Linda Olup?

23

MR. JERABEK:

24

THE COURT:

25

BY MS. MACDONALD:

Objection, relevance.
Sustained.

19AV-FA-11-1273

42
1

Now, I'm noticing on Page 14 -- wait a minute.

This document was not provided to Ms. Sandra

Grazzini-Rucki, was it?

MR. JERABEK:

Objection, relevance, Your

Honor.

THE COURT:

objection.

I'm going to overrule that

She can answer that question.

THE WITNESS:

When parties have attorneys we

provide the copy of the report to the attorney and

10

it would be the attorney's responsibility.

11

we went through the hearing, nobody represented on

12

November 8th that they hadn't received a copy and

13

hadn't been able to review it.

14

maintained that they didn't receive a copy or that

15

they received a copy that was not an exact copy.

16

BY MS. MACDONALD:

17

When

So nobody has

So my question is, I mean, on November 1, 2011,

18

did you provide a copy of this 14-page single

19

spaced document to Ms. Grazzini-Rucki?

20

I provided it to her attorney.

21

But my question is:

Did you provide a copy to Ms.

22

Sandra Grazzini-Rucki?

23

MR. JERABEK:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection, asked and answered.

Overruled.

You may answer.

I did not directly or

19AV-FA-11-1273

43
1

personally provide a copy to Ms. Grazzini.

her attorney's responsibility to share that and

Ms. Grazzini did not represent on November 8th

that she did not get a copy or that she did not

have access to the report.

presented 21 months ago.

BY MS. MACDONALD:

9
10
11
12

year 2011?
A

No.
MS. MACDONALD:

Your Honor, I need a calendar

that shows 2011, a 2011 calendar.

THE COURT:

14

MS. MACDONALD:

That's up to you.
I have a diary here, but I

15

don't have a 2011 calendar.

16

2011 calendar?

17

November 1 was.

19
20

There were no concerns

And do you have a calendar in front of you for the

13

18

It's

Does anyone have a

I want to figure out what day

MS. ELLIOTT:

Objection, Your Honor,

relevance.
THE COURT:

It's your opportunity to

21

cross-examine her.

This is your case.

We can't

22

try your case for you.

23

yourself, so if you anticipated that that's what

24

you were going to do, you needed to be prepared to

25

do that.

You have to try it

So, next question.

19AV-FA-11-1273

44
1
2
3
4

MS. MACDONALD:
a 2011 calendar.
THE COURT:

We'll take our 15-minute morning

break at this time.

5
6

Can I take a break to go get

(Recess taken)
THE COURT:

All right.

MacDonald wanted a calendar.

happened since then, Deputy?

DEPUTY MELTON:

We took a break.

Ms.

What -- What's

Sergeant Christopher Melton,

10

Dakota County Sheriff's Office.

11

before court convened, Ms. MacDonald was seen

12

taking photographs of the courtroom.

13

the court process we waited until a break for her

14

to get a misdemeanor citation.

15

the citation she was going to be released.

16

up to her during break, told her she was under

17

arrest for the offense of Contempt of Court, told

18

her she was not going to be handcuffed, we just

19

needed to get her name, date of birth and address

20

for the ticket and she'd be released.

21

refused.

22

This morning

To expedite

After giving her

I went

She has

She is still refusing.

THE COURT:

Okay.

Well, we want to proceed

23

here with the trial, and I presume that she will

24

remain under the jurisdiction of the Sheriff's

25

department until she complies with your procedures

19AV-FA-11-1273

45
1
2

and your requests.

DEPUTY MELTON:

Correct.

And, for the

record, as soon as she gives me her full name,

date of birth and address, I will give her her

citation, and she will be released.

her camera as evidence and have it examined to see

and verify that pictures were taken in the

courtroom.

information she will be released.

10
11

I will take

But as soon as she gives me the

THE COURT:

Okay.

And we can wait for that

until we conclude these proceedings?

12

DEPUTY MELTON:

13

THE COURT:

Correct.

Okay.

All right.

Then, Ms.

14

MacDonald, I notice that there's nothing in front

15

of you.

16

client is no longer seated beside you.

17

want to proceed here?

All your boxes have been removed and your

18

MS. MACDONALD:

19

THE COURT:

20

How do you

(No response.)

Ms. MacDonald?

Ms. MacDonald,

how would you like to proceed here?

21

MS. MACDONALD:

22

THE COURT:

(No response.)

Okay.

Well, there's no response

23

from Ms. MacDonald, and her clients have -- her

24

client has vacated along with all of the

25

supporters that were in the courtroom.

And all of

19AV-FA-11-1273

46
1

Ms. MacDonald's papers and boxes of files and

materials have been removed from the courtroom.

don't know why.

This matter is going to proceed either with our

without the participation of the Petitioner who

has absented herself from this hearing.

going to proceed under the Minnesota Rule 307

allowing the Court to proceed.

MacDonald, you're welcome to participate or not

I don't know what caused this.

We're

And, Ms.

10

participate, however you wish.

11

remain -- you're welcome to remain in the

12

courtroom if you wish.

13

the deputies if you wish.

14

proceed in this matter and with this hearing.

15

what would you like to do?

16

MS. MACDONALD:

17

THE COURT:

You're welcome to

You're welcome to go with

But we're going to
So

(No response.)

Ms. MacDonald, you have an

18

obligation to your client.

19

participate in these proceedings and proceed?

20

you want to remain seated in the courtroom or

21

would you like to go with the deputies?

22

MS. MACDONALD:

23

THE COURT:

Do you want to
Do

(No response.)

All right.

Then, Ms. MacDonald,

24

having received no response from you, we're going

25

to proceed and we'll just allow you to be seated

19AV-FA-11-1273

47
1

there and you can participate if you so desire.

We have Julie Friedrich on the stand.

We're

continuing with her testimony.

Friedrich, you admit you're still under oath?

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

And, Ms.

Yes.
And, Ms. MacDonald, you were in

the middle of cross-examining her.

cross-examine any further Ms. Friedrich?

MS. MACDONALD:

10

THE COURT:

Do you wish to

(No response.)

Okay.

Again, receiving no

11

response, I'll assume that that's a no.

12

Jerabek?

13

MR. JERABEK:

14

And, Mr.

Thank you, Your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION

15

BY MR. JERABEK:

16

17

Ms. Friedrich, were you ever an individual who

actually determined custody in this case?

18

No.

19

And isn't it true as a Guardian ad Litem it's your

20

responsibility to make certain recommendations

21

pertaining to the case?

22

Yes.

23

But you do not order anything?

24

No.

25

And that's the job for the Judge, is that correct?

19AV-FA-11-1273

48
1

Yes.

Are you aware of whether Ms. Grazzini-Rucki ever

indicated that she wanted to give up custody of

the children?

Yes, I'm aware of a period during my appointment

where she indicated that she wanted to share legal

custody with Mr. Rucki, and that she wanted Mr.

Rucki to have sole physical custody of the

children.

10

And that's all five children?

11

Yes.

12

And when was this time period?

13

This was during her appointment with Dr. Reitman

14

and in a phone call to me asking when Mr. Rucki

15

would come to pick up the children.

16

the date right in front of me, but if -- I don't

17

recall the date of Dr. Reitman's meeting, but I

18

believe it was in September or July -- August of

19

2012.

20

I don't have

Now, in this case, the children ended up in the

21

third-party care of other individuals.

22

that happen?

23

How did

During Ms. Grazzini's meeting with Dr. Reitman,

24

she not only requested that the children be placed

25

in the sole physical custody of Mr. Rucki and the

19AV-FA-11-1273

49
1

joint legal custody of the two parties, but she

also at the same time made sexual abuse

allegations against Mr. Rucki.

about the two unreconcilable bits of information.

And the attorneys, Ms. Henry and Ms. Elliott,

began talking to the clients about this proposal

and the parties reached an agreement that was

entered on the record through a conference call.

So the parties entered into a stipulation that the

I was concerned

10

children would be placed with a third party and

11

that third party was the paternal aunt, Tammy

12

Love.

13

So just to clarify, the third party taking -- it

14

appears to be some type of temporary -- temporary

15

care of the minor children, that was based upon an

16

agreement made by both parties?

17

That's correct.

18

Now, did -- pertaining to the issue of not wanting

19

the children in her care, did she --

20

Grazzini-Rucki ever contact you about that issue?

21

did Ms.

Shortly after the meeting that Ms. Grazzini had

22

with Mr. Reitman, I received at least one

23

voicemail message from Ms. Grazzini asking me when

24

somebody was going to come pick up these children.

25

She said if Mr. Rucki would have sole physical

19AV-FA-11-1273

50
1

custody then somebody needs to come get these

kids.

was between the meeting with Dr. Reitman and the

phone conference with the attorneys and the Judge

when the stipulation was entered.

So that was in a voicemail to me and that

Do you have any other -- any other recommendations

here aside from what is in your report about what

you believe is in the best interests of these

children?

10

I've been off the case for quite some time so I've

11

had no contact with the children or the parties.

12

I don't believe that I ever got to the point where

13

I was able to make a permanent parenting time

14

recommendation.

15

followed all of the recommendations that I made

16

during my appointment.

17

recommendation that I made that was never followed

18

by the mother was that she does seek individual

19

counseling with a therapist who specializes in

20

personality disorders.

21

But, by and large, the father

I think one very important

Now, although the Court mandated that you would

22

make a recommendation with regard to permanent

23

parenting time, isn't it true that you're also

24

obligated by law under Rule 905 of the Rules of

25

Guardian ad Litem Procedure to make

19AV-FA-11-1273

51
1

recommendations to the Court that you believe are

in the best interests of the minor children

throughout a proceeding?

4
5
6

Yes.
MR. JERABEK:

No further

questions.

THE COURT:

MS. ELLIOTT:

THE COURT:

10

Thank you.

Ms. Elliott, anything else?

Nothing else, Your Honor.
Ms. MacDonald, any questions?

MS. MACDONALD:

I already objected to the

11

proceedings.

12

sitting here in a wheelchair with no shoes on.

13

glasses are gone.

14

are gone.

15

I'm asking again, you know, that the kids be

16

restored to their mother and all of her property

17

be restored immediately.

18

I objected to this witness.

My client isn't here.

I'm
My

My boxes

I object to all these proceedings, and

THE COURT:

Okay.

Ms. MacDonald, I've ruled

19

on this a number of times.

The objection is

20

overruled.

21

proceedings.

22

time to comply with the deputy's requests and I'll

23

also give you an opportunity to call whoever you

24

believe took all of your boxes and files and

25

everything else out of this courtroom.

We're going to continue with these

I'll give you an opportunity at this

I have no

19AV-FA-11-1273

52
1

choice but to believe that that was on your

orders, your instructions; that this matter has

all been orchestrated to disrupt these

proceedings.

So, would you like to make a phone call to

get your property back so we can continue with

this hearing and you can be prepared to defend

your client, represent your client, or should we

just continue here?

10

MS. MACDONALD:

11

THE COURT:

12
13
14
15

What would you like to do?

(No response.)

All right.

Ms. Elliott, your

next witness.
MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, we call David Rucki

to the stand.
THE WITNESS:

And, Your Honor, there is

16

Exhibit 13 still here and the trial notebook.

17

you want to leave these here, or?

18
19

MS. ELLIOTT:

The notebook can stay.

I'll

get the --

20

(Witness excused.)

21

MS. MACDONALD:

Your Honor, can I state for

22

the record I don't have my glasses and I don't

23

have a cell phone.

24
25

If

MS. ELLIOTT:

They took them.

And also Ms. MacDonald had

Exhibit 12 in her possession when I guess all

19AV-FA-11-1273

53
1

of -- everything from her area was removed, so I'm

assuming that Exhibit 12 is with the rest of her

belongings.

4
5

THE COURT:
Exhibit 12?

6
7

MS. MACDONALD:

I just was arrested.

The

deputies came out and just took me back there.

8
9

Ms. MacDonald, where is

THE COURT:

Well, what instructions did you

give your --

10

MS. MACDONALD:

11

THE COURT:

12

MS. MACDONALD:

13

instructions.

14

of this.

15

THE COURT:

None.

-- client?
I didn't give any

I was just arrested in the middle

So why did they remove all your

16

belongings and your boxes then?

17

that?

18

MS. MACDONALD:

19

THE COURT:

Why did they do

I don't know.

So your office staff just took

20

all your property and left without any instruction

21

from you?

22

MS. MACDONALD:

23

THE COURT:

24

DEPUTY GONDER:

25

Right.

Okay.
Your Honor, if I might.

Tim

Gonder, G-o-n-d-e-r, with the Sheriff's Office.

19AV-FA-11-1273

54
1

When Sergeant Melton came in and advised her that

she was going to be cited and released, it was

made very clear that she was going to return to

this courtroom at the completion of his paperwork.

There was no expectation that she would be

detained for any more than a few minutes.

cell phone is in her property and it can be

returned to her at a moment's notice.

are not on her feet because she refused to put

And her

Her shoes

10

them on.

11

she refused to put them on.

12

her shoes and her glasses on.

13

that was her job and she would not do it.

14

only reason why she's in a wheelchair is because

15

she would not even stand up to be a part of these

16

proceedings.

17

seat her in the chair to get her here.

18

was no expectation that she was to be gone for

19

more than a few minutes, so there should be no

20

reason why her property did not stay in this

21

courtroom.

22

Her glasses are not on her face because

She asked me to put
I advised her that
The

We had to lift her from her seat and

THE COURT:

Okay.

So, there

Ms. MacDonald, these are

23

choices purely made by you and you alone.

You can

24

easily remedy this by complying with the Sheriff's

25

Department and putting your own shoes on and

19AV-FA-11-1273

55
1

putting your own glasses on, and calling your

office to get the property back.

Ms. Elliott, do you have another copy of

Exhibit 12?

MS. ELLIOTT:

THE COURT:

I do, Your Honor.

Ms. Friedrich, could we have you

please retake the stand, please?

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

Yes.
We'll have this one marked -- the

10

missing exhibit is 12?

11

12A.

12

THE CLERK:

13

identification.

14

Exhibit 12A is marked for

(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 12A was marked for

15

identification.)

16

MS. ELLIOTT:

17

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

18

as Exhibit 12A.

20

Court?
A

Okay.

Ms. Friedrich, I'm showing you what's been marked

19

21

We'll have this marked as

Can you identify that for the

This looks like a copy of the reports that were

22

filed -- copies of the reports that were filed

23

with the Court.

24

from November 1st, which is 14 pages, a report

25

from January 19th.

It looks like there is a report

19AV-FA-11-1273

56
1

2012?

I'm sorry.

November 1st is 2011.

The next one is

January 19, 2012, and that report is 19 pages.

There is a report of March 7, 2012, and that

report is ten pages, and a report from April 30,

2012, and that report is ten pages.

And, Ms. Friedrich, is this document the same as

what was previously marked 12 which is no longer

in the courtroom?

10

This exhibit looks the same as Exhibit 12.

I have

11

no reason to believe it's any different than the

12

original copy.

13
14

MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, I would offer

Exhibit 12A.

15

THE COURT:

16

MS. MACDONALD:

17

THE COURT:

18

MS. MACDONALD:

19

THE COURT:

20
21
22

I object.

What's your grounds?

Same grounds.

Objection is overruled

Exhibit 12A is received.

(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 12A was received
in evidence.)

23

THE COURT:

24

MS. ELLIOTT:

25

Ms. MacDonald, any objection?

stand.

Ms. Elliott, your next witness.

We'd call David Rucki to the

19AV-FA-11-1273

57
1

THE COURT:

Sir, please face the clerk, raise

your right hand to be sworn.

DAVID VICTOR RUCKI

After having been duly sworn, was examined

and testified as follows:

THE CLERK:

Please have a seat in the witness

seat.

full name, spell your first and last.

For the record, would you please state your

THE WITNESS:

10

David Victor Rucki, D-a-v-i-d,

R-u-c-k-i.

11

THE COURT:

12

MS. ELLIOTT:

13

Ms. Elliott.
Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

14

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

15

16

Mr. Rucki, you are the father of five children,

correct?

17

Yes, still am.

18

Could you give the Court, you know, a summary of

19
20

their names, ages?

A

21

My oldest is Nico, he's now 17.

Gianna is 13.

Nia is 11.

Samantha, 15.

And Gino is ten.

22

Okay.

23

Correct.

24

Can you tell the Court what sorts of things you

25

And their mother is Sandra Grazzini-Rucki?

have done with the children when they were growing

19AV-FA-11-1273

58
1
2

up?
A

I would think that -- I would say I'm a typical

dad.

You know, from -- you know, when they are young --

just being a dad, changing diapers.

in the middle of the night and did feed children,

participated with activities with my kids as

they've grown-up.

them.

10
11

I'm involved in every aspect of their lives.

I did get up

I went to the dentist with

I went to the doctors with them.

just think normal activity as a father.

Q

Were there any particular activities that you took

12

a more significant role, any of the extra

13

curricular things?

14

I would

Yeah, you know, I was very involved in the hockey

15

program out in Lakeville.

16

also coached.

Sat on the board.

17

You coached your children?

18

Yes.

19

Which children?

20

Mostly my oldest son, Nico, on the coaching, and

21
22

then basically the board stuff.

Q

23
24
25

And what -- During the marriage with Ms.

Grazzini-Rucki what was your employment?

Self-employed.
business.

I took over a family trucking

I've been in the trucking business --

19AV-FA-11-1273

59
1

grew up in it but started working with my father

in '87.

And where was your office?

It was at the home.

And what did Ms. Grazzini-Rucki do?

Nothing.

Did she work at all?

She was a flight attendant.

And what did her schedule consist of?

10

She would fly, you know, three to four days a week

11

on average.

12

through Wednesday, Thursday, be back on weekends.

13

We had a cabin so we had weekends up at the cabin

14

with the kids.

15

said, three to four days a week she'd fly to

16

Europe and that was her deal.

17

18
19

She would fly basically like a Monday

But initially she flew.

Like I

Would she be gone the entire time from Monday

through Wednesday or Thursday?

She would leave early in the morning 6:30 or 6:00,

20

catch the first flight out, 5:00, whatever it was

21

and she'd be gone that full day, wouldn't fly out

22

until the evening because the flights were

23

overnight, and then she'd be gone until, you

24

know -- it was generally like a four-day window,

25

even a three-day trip would be a four-day trip

19AV-FA-11-1273

60
1
2

because of the way the flights came in.

Q

And who took care of the kids on the three or four

days when Ms. Grazzini-Rucki was not home?

That would have been me.

Did you have a babysitter at all?

We had -- when Gino was born -- because of his

health issues it was fairly taxing.

We had hired

a girl basically full time, Molly, and she'd come

in early in the morning and she'd stay until 5

10

o'clock after I'd tried to -- pretty much get done

11

with work and then I'd take over.

12

of like a full-time job for her.

But it was kind

13

But you were there in the evenings?

14

I was always there in the evenings.

15

You didn't have somebody else provide care for the

16

children?

17

No.

18

And so you were in charge of preparing meals?

19

Absolutely.

20

Putting the kids to bed?

21

Absolutely.

22

Were you up with them in the mornings then, too,

23
24
25

or was Molly there?

A

When Molly was there, you know, she'd -- like we'd

have a set time she'd come in.

I believe it was

19AV-FA-11-1273

61
1

7-ish, and she'd --

you know, my job tends to

start early in the morning.

fairly busy.

o'clock.

early but basically we had to kind of wait until

she showed up before I could go.

At that time I was

My phones will start ringing 5:30, 6

Sometimes I'd have to be on the job

So how long did this schedule stay in place?

You know, I don't know.

Could have been -- I'd

say anywhere from a year to year and a half, not

10

quite two.

11

Okay.

And then what happened?

Anything change?

12

Well, we didn't need her anymore.

Gino got older.

13

She came in after he was, I'd say over a year old.

14

We really started having problems at the one-year

15

mark with him.

16

there until maybe the age of three for Gino.

17

18

Okay.

So, that's when she -- she was

After that did you have any care for the

children during the day?

19

No.

20

Okay.

21

It was me or her.
And did her flight schedule remain the

same?

22

Always has remained the same.

23

Now, you were divorced on May 12th of 2011?

24

The day that will live in infamy.

25

Yeah.

Prior to that time what was your

19AV-FA-11-1273

62
1
2

relationship with the children?

A

Again, just dad.

Nothing unusual.

Again, just

very routine.

are in sports, kids are in dance, all the

activities that kids do.

bus as a dad.

that she participated in the bus service as I call

it, but, no, she was very lacking in that

department.

10
11

You know, kids are in school, kids

I was more like a human

It's entertaining for me to hear

That was me running all the time like

a chicken with his head cut off.

Q

Can you describe what the household was like when

12

all five children were around and Ms.

13

Grazzini-Rucki was at home not flying?

14

There was a vibe in the house.

They were very

15

chaotic, real intense energy.

16

about her.

17

the later years after 2006 it tended to amplify.

18

Again, just chaos is a good word.

19

20
21

She's -- you know, in the -- I'd say

And did that change at all when she was flying

when she was not home?

It was night and day.

Everybody -- it would calm

22

down.

23

bed early, 9:00, 9:30.

24

tired, and the house was quiet.

25

Sandy has that aura

The kids would, you know, actually go to

They were out.

What time would they go to bed when Ms.

They were

19AV-FA-11-1273

63
1
2

Grazzini-Rucki was home?

A

3
4

It would just be all night.

It would just be

battling kids to go down, 10:00, 10:30, 11:00.

Q

Then, in May you were removed from the home, May

of 2011?

Yes.

And what -- how did that change your contact or

8
9

Unceremonial.

relationship with the children at that point?

A

At that point it pretty much just shut it off.

10

She started using law enforcement to keep me away

11

from the house.

12

order started coming after she filed some sort of

13

restraining order, and it just got worse after

14

that.

15

16
17

And within a week, the first

When was the first time you saw your children

after May of 2011?

The first time was at court this year.

I don't

18

know the dates.

I average about three times a

19

month in court.

So it was Dr. Reitman -- I'm

20

sorry -- Dr. Gilbertson testified to it earlier,

21

it was that time up in court when we met in that

22

room with Dr. Gilbertson.

23

Had you ever met with them in therapy before that?

24

I had been in his office with Nico.

25

He'd come

over to the house and talked to Nico a time or

19AV-FA-11-1273

64
1

two.

the phone.

I'd talked to him then.

I talked to him on

How about did you try working in therapy with them

at a place called Moxie?

It wasn't with Gilbertson.

Right.

No.

It was Moxie.

Did you see the children at Moxie?

I was -- I went to Moxie and had a session

or -- I think one or two sessions but the kids

never showed.

10

Okay.

And how about through Genesis 2?

11

Again, we had -- I don't know, maybe five or six

12

sessions.

13

they showed but no eye contact.

14

They all crowded on one couch.

15

not show up.

16

and basically ran out of there.

17

subsequently afterwards, they wouldn't even come

18

into the room, they wouldn't cooperate with

19

anybody.

It would never last more than five

20

minutes.

Can I -- I'd like to point out also that

21

what happened there was very degrading in the

22

sense that --

23
24
25

The kids did show -- the first day

They stayed away.
My oldest son did

No eye contact, wouldn't speak to me

THE COURT:

Well, Mr. Rucki, there is no

question in front of you, so...

THE WITNESS:

And then

Okay.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

3
4

Had you tried to make arrangements with Ms.

Grazzini-Rucki for you to see the children?

I was basically on a no-contact through the

courts.

got in trouble for a third-party contact by asking

a neighbor to grab some tools out of the house

because my basement flooded at my other house.

had to go to court for that.

10

11

I couldn't have any type of contact.

Do you have any convictions for violating an order

for protection?

12

Convictions, no, I don't think so.

13

Was the one you just talked about for having a

14

neighbor get tools, did you plead guilty to that

15

one?

16

You know, I'll be honest, I don't recall.

I did

17

--

18

for a year.

I've been thrown in jail for touching

19

my mailbox.

I have a no-weapons deal for two

20

years on me.

21

a gun.

22

yeah, I must have because I was put on parole

Okay.

I've never owned a gun, never fired

So, maybe I guess I was convicted.

Did you ever threaten to kill Ms.

23

Grazzini-Rucki and the five children at your

24

kitchen table?

25

No, and I testified to that previously.

The fact

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

that, you know, I'm having a discussion with her,

which was like talking to a brick wall with no

response, no emotion, pretty -- pretty important

stuff to be talking with your wife about, and I

believe I made the comment along the lines of, you

know, what do you want me to do, put a gun to my

head?

interpreted by her as me threatening everybody.

That's the only thing I can think of that that's

10
11

And that has been misconstrued by her and

where that came from.

Q

12

Did you ever leave a message on either Sandra's

address --

13

MS. ELLIOTT:

14

to step out.

Your Honor, I'm going to have

I'm about to have a coughing fit.

15

THE COURT:

16

(Off the record.)

17

MS. ELLIOTT:

18

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

19

20
21

Okay.

Thank you.

I apologize.

Mr. Rucki, did you ever leave a message on Ms.

Grazzini-Rucki's phone with gun shot sounds?

No.

What they are referring to and when I was

22

accosted by this reporter on this, was, you know,

23

I called my son's phone and as I explained to

24

them, you know, I'm a dad.

25

been shoved out of my children's lives.

And, you know, I've

I got all

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

this chaos around me now and I'm frustrated, and I

can't communicate to my children and my children

are -- I'm watching my son just drop out of

everything at school, sports, you know, just you

can see this kid shutting down.

called his phone and I was upset and, you know,

when we're upset you yell and you're trying to get

through to make this kid hear you and I'm just a

concerned dad, and a frustrated dad that wants to,

And, yeah, I

10

you know, I'm trying to get to my kid.

11

know, that's something you just can't explain to

12

people when you can't -- how you get thrown out of

13

their lives and they -- that's really all it is.

14

15
16

And, you

That was the phone message -- your voice message

to Nico, correct?

Yeah, and, you know, whatever else is on this gun

17

shot thing, that's all manufactured crap.

18

know, if that was such a big deal back then why

19

wasn't it put in court?

20

posed to the reporter.

21

22
23

You

And that's the question I

So you never left a message with gun shots to any

of your children?

Again, I do not own a gun.

24

I'm not a fisherman.

25

don't --

I've never shot a gun.

I'm not a hunter.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

And so the children in September of 2012 ended up

in the care of your sister, Tammy Love, and

petitioner's sister, Nancy Olson?

Correct.

And was that a result of an agreement that the

parties had come to because Ms. Grazzini-Rucki

indicated, one, that she didn't -- she wanted you

to have the children?

10
11

Yes, that is what we originally agreed with Tammy,

yes.

And also the recommendations of Dr. Reitman, that

12

Ms. Grazzini-Rucki had been not fostering the

13

children's relationship with you in any way?

14

Correct.

15

And the reason why Tammy -- Tammy moved into the

16

house on Ireland Place, is that correct?

17

Correct.

That's my former home.

18

And that's the family home?

19

That's the family home.

20

And is the reason why she moved into that home

21

because that's -- they wanted the children -- you

22

wanted the children to have as much stability as

23

possible throughout this transition?

24

Absolutely.

25

Okay.

And then eventually I think you heard the

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

testimony that the four younger children then went

to live with petitioner's sister, Nancy Olson?

Yeah, there was so much drama that evening trying

to find the younger kids and then the older two

girls not showing up and when they got them all

back in they were -- the younger ones were very

upset.

that evening and asked him to go over there to

help stabilize the kids.

I had called my brother-in-law earlier

And he did.

And, you

10

know, and they came to the conclusion that the

11

four younger ones should go over to Nancy's for

12

right now at that moment to -- just to get it

13

calm.

14

And then from that point on Nico -- at that point

15

until approximately April of 2013, Nico was

16

staying at the Ireland Place home with your

17

sister?

18

Yes.

19

And did you have any contact with him during that

20
21

period?
A

Yeah, you know, very slow in the beginning.

22

respected his space.

I mean, there was a lot of

23

time I hadn't seen him.

24

about him at that point.

25

running on his own and he had some demands and we

We didn't know a lot

He kind of had been

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

respected that and slowly kind of worked on

breaking down that barrier just with a hi, started

that way right there and really just gave him his

space until we got to a point where we could talk.

How's your relationship with Nico now?

I would call it normal as father/son.

And has he spent the night at your home?

Yes.

And you're living at the Farmington --

10

I live over in Farmington, yes.

11

-- address.

And then in April of 2013, the two

12

younger children also then moved into the home

13

with Tammy?

14

Yes.

15

And how has your relationship with the two younger

16
17

children, Nia and Gino, progressed?

A

Again, same kind of deal, just took it slow.

Nia

18

was a little more, I would call it, on the

19

frightened side.

20

stayed -- kept the distance.

21

helped having my mother there, Grandma, and really

22

slowly buffering and just letting down the guard

23

and let Nia come back.

24

really happened.

25

and not trying to ask too many questions, just let

You know, again, we just

I think it really

You know, that's what

And, again, just respecting her

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

her be a girl and show her I was there.

And how is your relationship with Nia today?

It's, again, I'd say it's normal.

We had a nice

moment at the State Fair with her grabbing my arm

and my hand and walking with me and holding my

hand and then I knew things were good.

with Gino.

always been very attentive and knowing that I'm

dad.

10

11

Gino's a pretty simple kid.

He's

And have both of those children also spent the

night with you at your Farmington home?

12

Yeah.

13

Are they comfortable with their home?

14

Yeah, they're fine.

15

the dogs.

16

We're good.

17

And same

18

I got three dogs.

They love

They're glad to be back with the dogs.

And now your two older girls, Samantha and Gianna,

do you have any idea where they are?

19

No.

20

Have you seen them recently?

21

I saw them, you know -- this is hard (crying).

22

You know, I don't stop looking for my girls.

And

23

I know they are with their mother.

24

know.

25

now and then out towards Elko to see if I can see

But you don't

And I was out -- I just take a run every

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

them.

Why do you go to Elko?

Because that's where she lives.

And that's where

her boyfriend -- her friend lives.

And I just sit

down a few blocks away where I can see the house.

And Gianna came out and I called Detective Lamm

right away.

mistake.

department.

And that was probably my first

I didn't know Elko had a police

I had known that they had been --

10

they had been disbanded years before so I didn't

11

know they had a police department.

12

Detective Lamm who was working on this, and he

13

didn't answer, and I kind of sped down the street

14

and Gianna saw me coming and she ran around the

15

house and I drove by the house to look down and I

16

did a U-turn and came back around the front of the

17

house thinking she might be running around the

18

house and went down the block, and I turned around

19

in the cul-de-sac and I came back down the

20

cul-de-sac and there was the boyfriend out there

21

with a videotape taping me coming down the street,

22

you know, and that was it.

So I called

23

And when was that?

24

Sometime in July.

25

Mr. Rucki, do you recall back in October of 2011

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

getting a phone call from the parking lot manager

near Macy's in downtown Minneapolis?

Yes.

What was the substance of that phone call?

I was working on a job.

I was driving a truck and

I was over in St. Louis Park.

I got a call from

this guy.

downtown Minneapolis and he asked me if I was down

there, and I said no.

He says he's a parking attendant in

And he said they found a

10

bunch of my checks.

And it just wasn't -- I

11

didn't quite understand what he was talking about

12

and he told me that they are Rucki Trucking

13

checks.

14

right down there.

15

showed me a load of checks and a piece of paper

16

with my name and my social security number and

17

some bank accounts and then --

And I said, well, I'm on my way.

18

MS. ELLIOTT:

19

THE COURT:

20

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

21

I'll be

And I drove down there and he

May I approach, Your Honor?

You may.

I'm showing you what's -- showing you what's

22

exhibit -- Marked as Exhibit 8 and already in

23

evidence in this court.

Can you identify that?

24

That's an old company check.

25

And is this a copy of one of the checks that was

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

returned to you from Macy's or from the parking

lot near Macy's?

Yes.

And how many of these were there?

Quite a few.

6
7

I'd say three-quarters of an inch, a

stack.
Q

Okay.

And now I'm showing you what's marked as

Exhibit 9, and can you -- that's already been

received in evidence as well.

10
11

But can you

identify that?
A

12

That also was there, it was my name and social

security and bank account.

13

And --

14

Of the company, yeah.

15

And do you -- can you identify the handwriting on

16
17

that document?
A

18
19

It looks -- actually looks like my daughter

Sammy's handwriting.

20

And this was part of the documents that the

parking lot attendant said he found?

21

Yes.

22

Did you receive any more phone calls.

23

It started pretty much all day after that.

I was

24

getting phone calls from all over the cities from

25

Minneapolis, St. Paul, Richfield, Lakeville.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

was out running around picking up checks until

10:00, 10:30 at night.

Police Department because I got a call from a

woman over at the mobile home park right off of

35W and Kenrick.

also had people mailing them to me because I

wasn't going to run everywhere.

fairly honest and, you know, it was the same

stuff.

10
11

She also had quite a few.

But people were

It was the social security number, name

Have you had any problems with your credit as a

result of that, do you know?

Just -- not from those checks per se, but all from

14

this whole ordeal.

15

ruined.

16

and checks.

12
13

I'd called the Lakeville

Okay.

My credit has just been

Now, Mr. Rucki, I'm going to be showing you

17

portions of a video that's been marked as

18

exhibit -- that's been received into evidence as

19

Exhibit 10.

20
21
22
23
24
25

THE COURT:

It's my understanding the

equipment is working.
(Off the record - attempting to turn on
equipment.)
MS. ELLIOTT:
laptop again.

I think we'll just do it on the

This is the exhibit that was

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

already admitted into evidence.

Rucki -- Judge, can you see from there?

THE COURT:

And so, Mr.

I can see from here.

If you want

to put it at an angle.

Ms. MacDonald, do you care

to see the exhibit as we watched yesterday?

MS. MACDONALD:

(No response.)

THE COURT:

indicating anything.

Jerabek, if you want to step up and take a look

Okay.

Again, she's not

You may proceed.

Mr.

10

and anyone else is welcome to take a look at the

11

video that's being played on the laptop.

12

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

13

So, Mr. Rucki, the day after you received the call

14

from the Macy's parking garage attendant -- or

15

that afternoon -- did we go down and review?

16

Yes, we did.

17

Okay.

18

Can you describe what this video is

showing?

19

It's showing the 2007 Suburban at the pay booth.

20

Okay.

21

It actually was a company truck.

22

And who was in possession of that vehicle on

23

And that's the 2007 Suburban that --

October 6, 2007?

24

Sandra.

25

That's clip one.

Clip two, can you describe what

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

that is showing?

This is Sandy and Samantha getting in an elevator.

That's petitioner and your daughter Samantha?

Yes.

And this was also on the recorded video at the

parking garage?

Correct.

Clip three, can you describe what you see in this?

The Suburban pulling up to the pay booth.

10

So now it's at the pay booth, what do you see?

11

Right there, the passenger door opened and out

12
13

come the papers.

Q

14

And those were the papers that were identified as

Exhibits 8 and 9?

15

Correct.

16

And Samantha isn't old enough to drive, is she?

17

No.

18

She would have been just around 13.

Just

turned 13.

19

Okay.

Okay.

20

That's the back of the Suburban driving up to the

21

pay booth.

22

pay booth.

23

24
25

Describe what this is showing?

Just the Suburban pulling up to the

The fourth entry, can you describe what that

shows?

Samantha and Sandra, looks like they have been

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

shopping, and they are back in the elevator.

Do you see anything in Samantha's arms?

Looks like a bunch of packages and some papers.

stack of papers.

Clip five -- six, I apologize shows what?

The two of them, Sandy and Samantha walking to and

getting in the elevator.

Clip seven?

They are walking away from the elevators towards

10

the parking ramp and Samantha just threw a bunch

11

of papers down on the ground.

12

Clip eight shows what?

13

They are walking to the elevators from the parking

14

ramp.

15

Did Ms. Grazzini-Rucki have anything in her arms?

16

Looks like she was carrying a package, a bag.

17

And clip nine?

18

That looked like the other angle from that last

19

clip.

They were walking and she's carrying --

20

That's when they are just arriving?

21

It must have been.

22

And the final clip?

23
24
25

It looks like it's a repeat

of one of the other ones?

A

Yeah, the same one as they're leaving going to the

ramp where she drops the papers -- Samantha drops

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1
2

the papers.
Q

And you have no doubt in your mind that that's

your daughter Samantha?

No doubt, unfortunately.

And do you know what day of the week this was?

I don't know the specific day.

7
8

when Samantha should have been in school.

Q

9
10

We did check and she was not excused from school.

I mean, she should have been in school.

13
14

And do you know whether she was excused from

school that day?

11
12

It was a weekday

Do you think the children should have a

relationship with their mother?

Yeah, I do.

She is, after all, their mother.

She

15

was a good mother when the kids were young.

16

of things have transpired since then.

17

been having problems in our family -- her family

18

particularly since 2006 where there's been a slow

19

deterioration of Sandy.

20

know, I don't know -- when her mother died in 2008

21

something changed with her, and it's just been

22

getting worse.

23

24
25

We have

You know, the drama.

You were ordered to complete a psychological

evaluation, correct?
Yes.

A lot

You

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

And did you do that?

Yes.

You were ordered to complete a chemical dependency

evaluation?

Yes.

Did you do that?

Yes.

And were there any recommendations for you?

No.

10

Okay.

11

Yes.

12

And you also were ordered to complete anger

13

Did you do a hair follicle test as well?

management with Bob Kelly?

14

Yes.

15

And did you complete that?

16

Yes.

17

You were ordered to work with Judy Sherwood for

18

parent coaching.

Did you do that?

19

Yes.

20

And have you cooperated with both of the Guardian

21

ad Litems that have been appointed in this case?

22

Yes.

23

What do you think is in the best interests of your

24

children regarding custody, legal and physical

25

custody?

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

I think that I should be the parent.

You know,

I'm the only one that can offer them stability and

give them any shot.

should be.

know, she is their mother.

of dealing with reality it seems.

know --

You know, that's where it

I do believe, again, back to, you

But she's not capable
She -- you

When -- if she were awarded custody do you think

she would foster the children's relationship with

10

you?

11

Absolutely not.

12

Why do you believe that?

13

She has shown no interest in it and she said it

14

herself.

15

What has she said?

16

She says that she doesn't think that she could

17

deal with me in any capacity and she's shown

18

nothing but hostility towards me, and she's

19

basically portrayed that to the children and I

20

cannot see how that would foster any type of

21

relationship.

22

After September 7th, when your sister moved into

23

the Ireland place home, did you go to the home at

24

all?

25

Yeah, I just -- basically just to do repairs,

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

small repairs of the house.

shambles.

The house was in

Can you describe for the Court what your house

looked like when your sister Tammy took over

possession of it?

It was a garbage house.

Destroyed.

Holes.

The

filth was immense.

Gray fuzz all over the

carpets.

holes in the walls, it looked like a war zone.

Food everywhere.

Writings on the walls,

10

How about the yard?

11

The yard was virtually dead and I called it

12

cabbage.

13

it was three feet high.

14

just beat up and torn down.

15

home at one point.

16

17

It was nothing but weeds.

In some areas

It just was -- it was

It was a beautiful

And so have you been at the home then making the

repairs to get the home ready to sell?

18

Yes.

19

So, and -- and do you know whether at the time

20

that your sister took over the home where Nico was

21

living?

22

Can you repeat that?

23

When your sister moved into the home in early

24
25

September of 2012, had Nico been living there?

A

No, nobody seemed to know anything about it.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

About where Nico was?

Where Nico had been.

You know, I called some

friends.

might know where he was.

and one of the kids said he's hanging out with

this Nick kid that he used to play hockey with

years ago.

had one of the parents look him up in the phone

directory, school directory, and we gave that

10
11

They had kids that are his age that

I made a few phone calls

And I didn't know where he lived, so I

information to the police department.

Q

Okay.

And now since September 7th of 2012, Nico

12

has been either at the Ireland Place home or with

13

you at the Farmington home?

14

Correct.

15

What things were written on the walls?

16

It looked like the girls were very distressed, a

17

lot of hope, a lot of messages about hope.

18

my daughters had written in her closet that she

19

was tired of being bullied, you know.

20

disturbing.

21

they'd been held hostage in this house trying to

22

stay inspirational to deal with what they were

23

dealing with.

24
25

One of

It's very

These kids were -- it looked like

Do you have any plans for what to do with the

older girls once they are found or returned?

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

You know, I would hope that we can, you know, get

them some sort of help where they could be

introduced to really the truth and the reality of

what's going on.

basis of what's happening.

deprogramming, if you want to use that word.

know, I don't know at what facility this is going

to happen but right now in the state they seem to

be in, you know, I can't imagine that they could

I don't think they have any

You know,
You

10

come directly to me without some sort of

11

intervention or some help to try to balance this

12

out.

13

14
15

And have -- do you have --

are you afraid of any

actions of Sandra towards the children?

A

Yeah, I don't think she is stable.

I just --

I have a real fear of her myself.

you

16

know.

You

17

know, I cannot --

18

what's in the best interests of these children.

19

They use them as pawns.

20

these two girls and whipping them up for her own

21

personal whatever it is she thinks she needs.

22

But, you know, I do not feel that these kids are

23

in --

24

we figure out what's going on with her, and that

25

we can stabilize just their lives and around --

they have no regard for law or

They are clearly using

they cannot be around her right now until

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1
2

with her around it's not stable.

Q

3
4

Are you afraid that any of the younger -- either

of the younger two children will be abducted?

It is a concern.

You know, they are irrational.

They don't -- Again, they don't have any regard

of -- or fear of the courts, the law, you know,

property, personal property, personal -- my home.

I've been vandalized twice now, once by Mr.

Reardon's son.

We got him on film.

We got Mr.

10

Reardon on film coming over to my house late at

11

night with a flashlight.

12

big guy and all, but I don't feel safe and I can't

13

imagine that -- it'd be the same for my children.

I don't feel -- I'm a

14

And your home was vandalized recently, wasn't it?

15

August 4th.

16

And that's the videotape that you have?

17

Yeah.

We have Mr. Reardon's son, his middle son,

18

who is in the military in his fatigues and his

19

haircut and it was a training weekend for ROTC or

20

whatever that's called, and he's brandishing an

21

eight-inch knife openly walking around my property

22

at 5:30 in the morning.

23

Was there any property damaged?

24

He broke into one of my garages and slashed up my

25

Chevelle tires, ripped the stereo out of it and

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

went around outside and slashed up the tires on my

Suburban, broke the door going into my garage.

4
5

Are the Lakeville Police investigating that

currently?

Yes.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Thank you, Mr. Rucki.

I have

nothing else.

THE COURT:

Ms. MacDonald.
CROSS EXAMINATION

10

BY MS. MACDONALD:

11

Well, I just want to ask you, did you pay any of

12

the court-ordered child support from the May 2011

13

order?

14

No.

15

Did you pay any of the court-ordered spousal

16
17

support from May 2011 order?

A

No.

18

(Pause)

19

THE COURT:

20

BY MS. MACDONALD:

21

22

Anything else?

Do you currently have ownership of the Ireland

Place property?

23

Yes.

24

And did Judge Knutson sign a summary real estate

25

judgment--

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, I'm going to object

to this line of questioning as irrelevant to

custody and parenting time.

THE COURT:

I'll overrule that.

You can

answer.

THE WITNESS:

I don't know if it's -- I don't

know the technicality of it all, but it was

awarded to me after your client put it into

default and failed to get it out of foreclosure.

10

(Pause)

11

THE COURT:

12

MS. MACDONALD:

13

THE COURT:

14

MR. JERABEK:

15
BY MR. JERABEK:

17

18
A

Briefly.

Briefly, what do you believe your parenting

I'm a good dad.

I'm a well-structured guy.

loving, carrying dad.

Q

22
23

Mr. Jerabek?

strengths are?

20
21

No.

CROSS EXAMINATION

16

19

Anything else?

I'm a

I'm a dad.

Do you think there are any issues you have to work

on as a parent?

I think, like anybody, patience is -- you know, my

24

life has gotten much calmer now that I've been

25

away for a couple years.

I attribute most of that

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

to dealing with Sandra and her family.

patience is something that I think we all have to

work on.

5
6

You know,

Do you think Ms. Grazzini-Rucki has strengths as a

parent?

You know, she did.

She was a loving mom, a caring

mom, you know, years ago.

I think that has

diminished over time here.

capable of dealing with what's -- today, I just

I don't think she is

10

don't think she has the capability of dealing with

11

children anymore.

12

13
14

So what do you think her weaknesses are at the

present time?

Right now she is unstable.

Her emotions are way

15

out of check.

I think she's out of check with

16

reality.

17

to her family, how she uses her children.

18

know, this path of destruction that she's on

19

doesn't --

20

anything.

21

never has been.

22

reasonable adults you'd think you'd be able to

23

talk about this stuff and work through it or come

24

to a conclusion of what needs to be done.

25

highly theatrical, chaotic.

I don't think she grasps what she's done

there is no --

You

it doesn't warrant

There's no reason for this.

There

If we were two, you know,

This is

A lot of this doesn't

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2

even make sense.

Q

Now, you were asked a question by her about

custody and you said that you should be the

parent.

parents of the children, correct?

Now, it's obvious that you're both the

Correct.

Now, when you said that, what did you mean?

You know, every child needs a parent.

You need

both parents, and, you know, we have -- my family

10

has mental illness in it.

My grandmother was --

11

is schizophrenic.

12

how -- the instability of all this stuff, but, you

13

know, you need to have both parents whether or not

14

one parent may not be as well as the other, but if

15

she is not well, she can work on getting help and

16

I believe that it's important that she is around

17

for her children, to be able to talk to her

18

children.

19

good for these kids not to have a mother, and, you

20

know, just things need to be in control, and she's

21

not in control.

22

that she get some help and so that she can be a

23

good mother to her children.

24

she refuses, she is a detriment to these children,

25

and she clearly doesn't have the facilities to

We're familiar with, you know,

You know, you don't want --

it's not

And, I mean, I would just ask

But right now, as

19AV-FA-11-1273

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make good decisions around them and put them in --

tends to use them and put them in highly volatile

situations where kids don't need to be involved,

especially in the parents' problems.

that, you know, if she got help we could work with

her.

the kids are protected.

don't think she should be alone with these kids

right now in her current state, and, you know,

I believe

It would have to be in an environment where

I really believe that.

10

but, if she's not -- she needs to grasp this and I

11

don't know if she can or not.

12

Are you ready, willing and able to take the kids

13

-- I would say you already discussed the two

14

girls, but are you ready, willing and able to take

15

the kids into your care at the present time?

16

Absolutely, you know.

Again, you got to remember

17

Sandy is a flight attendant.

She was gone a lot,

18

and, you know, she portrays herself as being home

19

all the time.

20

run a business.

21

house.

22

I was a dad when this started.

23

today and it hasn't changed.

24

just part of life.

25

children you accept your responsibility as dad.

She wasn't home all the time.

I'm a dad.

I work out of the

I'm always home, you know.

So, you know,

I'm still a dad

And, I mean, that's

I mean, when we started having

19AV-FA-11-1273

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And I'm dad.

MR. JERABEK:

Thank you.

No further

questions.

THE COURT:

Ms. Elliott.

MS. ELLIOTT:

couple other exhibits.

the book.

Yes, Your Honor.

I have a

They are also included in

THE CLERK:

Exhibit 14 is marked for

identification.

Exhibit 15 is marked for

10

identification.

And Exhibit 16 is marked for

11

identification.

12

(Whereupon, Exhibits Numbers 14, 15, 16 were

13

marked for identification.)

14

MS. ELLIOTT:

15

Thank you.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

16

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

17

Mr. Rucki, I'm showing you what's been marked as

18

Exhibit 14.

Is this a copy of a recent paycheck

19

stub of yours through Kang Contracting?

20

Yes.

21

And has your income changed at all since November

22

of 2012 when I believe the parties agreed on the

23

record that your -- you were able to earn about

24

$60,000 a year?

25

No.

It's the same.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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Okay.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, we would offer

Exhibit 14?

MS. MACDONALD:

Same objection I've been

making.

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

What was that?

Objecting to these

proceedings and objecting.

THE COURT:

10

Okay.

Objection is overruled.

Exhibit 14 is received.

11

(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 14 was received in

12

evidence.)

13

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

14

I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 15,

15

is this a summary of your monthly -- your current

16

monthly living expenses?

17

Yes.

18

MS. ELLIOTT:

19

THE COURT:

20

MR. JERABEK:

21

THE COURT:

22

MS. MACDONALD:

23

THE COURT:

24
25

We offer Exhibit 15.

Any objection to 15?
No objection.
Ms. MacDonald?
Same objection.

Okay.

Exhibit 15 is received.

Objection is overruled.
(Whereupon, Exhibit Number 15 was received in

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1

evidence.)

BY MS. ELLIOTT:

Now, I'm showing you Exhibit 16 and is this a

child support guidelines worksheet showing your

income at $60,000 a year and Ms. Grazzini-Rucki's

income at $60,000 a year that she has the ability

to earn?

That's what it looks like to me.

And this document, it reflects she doesn't have

10
11
12

overnights with the children at this point?

A

No, she does not.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Your Honor, we'd offer

13

Exhibit 16 as well?

14

MS. MACDONALD:

15

THE COURT:

16

MS. ELLIOTT:

17

And what is that?

The child support guidelines

worksheet.

18

THE COURT:

19

MS. MACDONALD:

20

MR. JERABEK:

21

THE COURT:

22

MS. MACDONALD:

23

THE COURT:

24

MS. MACDONALD:

25

Objection.

Mr. Jerabek.
It's an inaccurate document.
No objection, Your Honor.
Ms. MacDonald, Exhibit 16?
It's an inaccurate document.

How is it -It's not factual.

The whole

thing is -- it just isn't factual and I object.

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

THE COURT:

Okay.

Do you wish to question

Mr. Rucki on that?

MS. MACDONALD:

I could just ask him a few

questions.

THE COURT:

Go ahead.
RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MACDONALD:

So what type of education do you have?

Where did

you graduate from high school?

10

Minneapolis Southwest.

11

And did you -- what happened after that?

12

As far as?

13

As schooling?

14

Went to the University of Minnesota, went to

15

Normandale, went back to the University of

16

Minnesota.

17

What job did you have in high school?

18

Job?

19

Uh-huh.

20

I worked at a Holiday gas station.

21

Dairy Queen.

22

worked at a Country Kitchen.

I worked at a

I worked at Brothers Restaurant.

23

And what year was that?

24

You know, prior to 1981.

25

And what period of time did you work at the

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

Country Kitchen?

1981, a senior in high school.

And what other jobs did you just mention?

Brothers Restaurant, Holiday Gas Station, Dairy

Queen.

And when did you work at Brothers Restaurant?

1980.

And for what period of time?

I couldn't give you specifics, maybe through the

10

summer I was in high school.

11

And what's the third job you mentioned?

12

I worked at the Rain restaurant for a while which

13

is at Southdale, cooking.

14

What period of time was that?

15

1981.

16

And for how long were you there?

17

A few months maybe.

18

In 1981?

19

Yeah.

20

And what was the fourth job you mentioned?

21

Holiday Gas Station, tenth grade, Dairy Queen,

22

tenth, 11th, 12th, kind of a summer job.

23

Holiday Gas Station, when did you work there?

24

Tenth grade, 1979.

25

For what period of time?

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

Tenth grade.

MS. ELLIOTT:

to this.

Your Honor, I'm going to object

This questioning as irrelevant.

THE COURT:

MS. MACDONALD:

What's the relevance?

I'm just trying to get some

work history.

THE COURT:

history.

work?

Do you want to ask about any recent

10

BY MS. MACDONALD:

11

12

Well, we can get recent work

Did you work at all those jobs all at the same

time?

13

No.

14

So they were just different periods of time?

15

Just different periods.

16

And that was when you were in high school?

17

Yes.

18

And then --

19

I was a kid.

and then so that would bring us up

to -- what year did you graduate from high school?

20

1981.

21

1981?

22

Yes.

23

And then in 1981 when you graduated where did

24
25

So all those jobs were before 1981?

you -MR. JERABEK:

Objection relevance, the Court

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1

has said recent work history.

THE COURT:

Objection sustained.

Let's go to

the last five or ten years or something.

BY MS. MACDONALD:

So ten years ago.

So let's go ten years ago which

would be two thousand -- What would ten years ago

be?

2003?

2003.

10

I can't think right now.

MS. MACDONALD:

11

to January 2003?

12

THE COURT:

13

BY MS. MACDONALD:

14

15

Sure.

So January 2003 -- on January 1, 2003, what job

did you -- where were you working?

16

I was self-employed.

17

For whom?

18

Myself.

19

Yourself.

20
21
22
23

So, Your Honor, can I go back

(Whereupon, the court reporter interrupted

and asked for a recess.)
THE COURT:

Okay.

We're just going to take a

quick recess.

24

(Recess taken.)

25

MS. MACDONALD:

Was that on the record just

19AV-FA-11-1273

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1
2

now what happened?

THE COURT:

Yes.

We'll put that on the

record.

proceedings.

reason to believe that he was recording the

proceedings.

the proceedings were not being recorded.

The Court was interrupted in the

A gentleman came in and we had

We asked the deputy to ensure that

Is this going to -- Do you want to keep going

on this?

We'll take our lunch break and come back

10

to this?

Is this going to be a while, Ms.

11

MacDonald?

12

MS. MACDONALD:

13

THE COURT:

14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

break.

(No response.)

All right.

We'll take our lunch

We'll come back at 1:30.

(Lunch recess taken.)

19AV-FA-11-1273

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2

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF MINNESOTA)

3
4

ss.
COUNTY OF DAKOTA)

5
I, RHONDA L. ROUTE, Official Court

6
7

Reporter for the State of Minnesota, one of the

official court reporters of the First Judicial

District, State of Minnesota, do hereby certify

10

that as such reporter, I reported in shorthand to

11

the best of my ability the proceedings had in the

12

hearing of the aforementioned action; that I

13

thereafter transcribed the foregoing into

14

typewriting by means of computer-aided

15

transcription to the best of my ability; and that

16

the foregoing transcript consisting of 98 pages is

17

a true and correct transcript of the proceedings

18

had herein.

19

_________________________

20

Rhonda L. Route, RPR

Official Court Reporter
Dakota County Judicial Center
Hastings, Minnesota 55033
651-438-8087

21
22
23

Dated:

January 23, 2014

The

24

the

25

foregoing

transcript
same

control

by

does
any

and / or

reporter .

n o t

certification
a p p l y

m e a n s

t o

u n l e s s

direction

o f

any

of

u n d e r
t h e

this

reproduction
the

direct

certifying

o f